Happy Birthday President Nelson!

[Rivendale]

You are not following me. I didn't say make everyone do the right thing like Satan. Is it possible to make the right choices 2 times in a row? How about 3? How about 4? If we have a multiverse do you think out of the infinite you's that you could live your entire life making all the right choices?

I think I am following you very well. You are proposing something that is an impossibility. And the multiverse theory is a BIG if. I’m not even going there. That takes a LOT more faith than simply believing in a creator God that has created a world in which we have the opportunity to choose good over evil. It somewhat amazes me that this would be such a hard concept to fathom/accept.

People have their reasons for everything I guess.

Regards,
MG

Then you have to embrace the horrors. It is part of the plan you have to celebrate events like the MMM. Those innocent people had no chance because it is impossible for their not to be opposition in all things. You took it a step further and claimed they weren't innocent. I only used Multiverse to get it across that it is logically possible for people to make the right decisions especially if god can do all things. He could have made a world where everyone chose (NOT FORCED) to do the right things and he didn't. He wanted evil to happen. And you must also if you follow his plan.

[MG 2.0]

I think I am following you very well. You are proposing something that is an impossibility. And the multiverse theory is a BIG if. I’m not even going there. That takes a LOT more faith than simply believing in a creator God that has created a world in which we have the opportunity to choose good over evil. It somewhat amazes me that this would be such a hard concept to fathom/accept.

People have their reasons for everything I guess.

Regards,
MG

Then you have to embrace the horrors. It is part of the plan you have to celebrate events like the MMM. Those innocent people had no chance because it is impossible for their not to be opposition in all things. You took it a step further and claimed they weren't innocent. I only used Multiverse to get it across that it is logically possible for people to make the right decisions especially if god can do all things. He could have made a world where everyone chose (NOT FORCED) to do the right things and he didn't. He wanted evil to happen. And you must also if you follow his plan.

If you take multiverse out of the equation, which is not unreasonable at all, you still end up with a world such as the one we live in. That then needs to be explained.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Then you have to embrace the horrors. It is part of the plan you have to celebrate events like the MMM. Those innocent people had no chance because it is impossible for their not to be opposition in all things. You took it a step further and claimed they weren't innocent. I only used Multiverse to get it across that it is logically possible for people to make the right decisions especially if god can do all things. He could have made a world where everyone chose (NOT FORCED) to do the right things and he didn't. He wanted evil to happen. And you must also if you follow his plan.

If you take multiverse out of the equation, which is not unreasonable at all, you still end up with a world such as the one we live in. That then needs to be explained.

Regards,
MG

That made no sense. I did take the multiverse out. You have to embrace evil because it is part of god's plan and according to LDS theology you agreed also. Without opposition then there is no plan. Again you have to celebrate when evil happens because all the moving parts are working as they should. Every innocent person killed because of evil is just as it is suppose to happen. God making it right with some eternal scorecard and justice system rectifies everything. You have to agree that someone choosing to kill Men, Women and Children (removing their freewill in favor of the perpetrators) in a fake truce is okay. Because he could have done differently.

[MG 2.0]

If you take multiverse out of the equation, which is not unreasonable at all, you still end up with a world such as the one we live in. That then needs to be explained.

Regards,
MG

That made no sense. I did take the multiverse out.

OK. Leave it out. It makes no sense.

You have to embrace evil because it is part of god's plan and according to LDS theology you agreed also.

I don’t think that God’s plan entails “embracing evil”. It does accept the necessity of making choices between good and evil.

Without opposition then there is no plan.

As of yet I haven’t seen any realistic alternatives. Fanciful maybe. Wishful thinking maybe. But nothing that allows for real humans making real choices.

Again you have to celebrate when evil happens because all the moving parts are working as they should.

I’m assuming that you are a lapsed member of the LDS Church in some form or fashion? If so, do remember ever “celebrating evil”. I don’t celebrate evil, I condemn it. It does play its part in the plan though. Without it, no opposition. Without opposition, no real choice. Without real choice, no real progress or growth.

How and when have you had the most growth in your life? Opposition or no opposition?

Every innocent person killed because of evil is just as it is suppose to happen.

No. Unfortunately it happens. Remember, evil is something that humans do to each other as a result of having free will. God’s plan does allow for free will for what I see as being obvious reasons. As I said earlier, to believe in a loving God that allows for real choices in this world, there would have to be some kind of a ‘fail safe’. I believe that’s the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Do you have a better alternative for how to overcome the effects of evil in the world?

God making it right with some eternal scorecard and justice system rectifies everything.

Mercy will outweigh justice through the merits of Jesus Christ. The Lamb without spot.

You have to agree that someone choosing to kill Men, Women and Children (removing their freewill in favor of the perpetrators) in a fake truce is okay. Because he could have done differently.

Again, how would you see God doing things differently when He is working with and teaching sentient creatures that have free will to disobey His commandments?

I think your only choice might be nihilism. I don’t prefer that choice.

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

That made no sense. I did take the multiverse out.

OK. Leave it out. It makes no sense.

You have to embrace evil because it is part of god's plan and according to LDS theology you agreed also.

I don’t think that God’s plan entails “embracing evil”. It does accept the necessity of making choices between good and evil.

Without opposition then there is no plan.

As of yet I haven’t seen any realistic alternatives. Fanciful maybe. Wishful thinking maybe. But nothing that allows for real humans making real choices.

Again you have to celebrate when evil happens because all the moving parts are working as they should.

I’m assuming that you are a lapsed member of the LDS Church in some form or fashion? If so, do remember ever “celebrating evil”. I don’t celebrate evil, I condemn it. It does play its part in the plan though. Without it, no opposition. Without opposition, no real choice. Without real choice, no real progress or growth.

How and when have you had the most growth in your life? Opposition or no opposition?

Every innocent person killed because of evil is just as it is suppose to happen.

No. Unfortunately it happens. Remember, evil is something that humans do to each other as a result of having free will. God’s plan does allow for free will for what I see as being obvious reasons. As I said earlier, to believe in a loving God that allows for real choices in this world, there would have to be some kind of a ‘fail safe’. I believe that’s the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Do you have a better alternative for how to overcome the effects of evil in the world?

God making it right with some eternal scorecard and justice system rectifies everything.

Mercy will outweigh justice through the merits of Jesus Christ. The Lamb without spot.

You have to agree that someone choosing to kill Men, Women and Children (removing their freewill in favor of the perpetrators) in a fake truce is okay. Because he could have done differently.

Again, how would you see God doing things differently when He is working with and teaching sentient creatures that have free will to disobey His commandments?

I think your only choice might be nihilism. I don’t prefer that choice.

Regards,
MG

You are fixated on the idea that growth requires opposition. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Like Polio and sepsis. You suffer from the argue from ignorance at least two times in this thread. You say you can't see how so you assume suffering and murder is ok. It is simply part of the plan despite the fact god steps in and stops all kinds of horrors albeit it randomly and only when it supports faith. You failed to understand my alternative where an all powerful god could have created a world where suffering was not necessarily yet didn't. As someone else said the people who perpetrated the MMM probably prayed before the used their muskets and knifes and according to your theology this is supposed to happen. The template was setup in the garden and if you really believe it deaths of innocent people shouldn't be sad it is an inevitable part of the theme.

[Limnor]

Let me ask you this. What would you see as a better plan than the one that is obviously in effect? Assuming there is a creator God who rules over all. Would you remove the opposition? How so? Agency? How so?

Regards,
MG

A better plan would be one that doesn’t incorporate secrecy or deception.

One that allows for opposition to exist but has guard rails in place to limit corrupt leaders to take advantage of agency through coercion by threatening eternal loss of family unless you obey the institution.

[MG 2.0]

OK. Leave it out. It makes no sense.



I don’t think that God’s plan entails “embracing evil”. It does accept the necessity of making choices between good and evil.



As of yet I haven’t seen any realistic alternatives. Fanciful maybe. Wishful thinking maybe. But nothing that allows for real humans making real choices.



I’m assuming that you are a lapsed member of the LDS Church in some form or fashion? If so, do remember ever “celebrating evil”. I don’t celebrate evil, I condemn it. It does play its part in the plan though. Without it, no opposition. Without opposition, no real choice. Without real choice, no real progress or growth.

How and when have you had the most growth in your life? Opposition or no opposition?



No. Unfortunately it happens. Remember, evil is something that humans do to each other as a result of having free will. God’s plan does allow for free will for what I see as being obvious reasons. As I said earlier, to believe in a loving God that allows for real choices in this world, there would have to be some kind of a ‘fail safe’. I believe that’s the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Do you have a better alternative for how to overcome the effects of evil in the world?



Mercy will outweigh justice through the merits of Jesus Christ. The Lamb without spot.



Again, how would you see God doing things differently when He is working with and teaching sentient creatures that have free will to disobey His commandments?

I think your only choice might be nihilism. I don’t prefer that choice.

Regards,
MG

You are fixated on the idea that growth requires opposition.

In the sense of growth and human development towards perfection and becoming something better than we were, yes.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Like Polio and sepsis.

That’s a false analogy. Polio and sepsis don’t make you stronger. They actually do damage, sometimes fatal, to the human organism. However, how one deals with ailments which affect mankind can make one more resilient and/or more depressive and withdrawn/angry towards God and fellow human beings.

You suffer from the argue from ignorance at least two times in this thread. You say you can't see how so you assume suffering and murder is ok.

Murder is not OK. Suffering is a by product of being human. Growth does not occur through committing murder. One will be punished for doing so. Suffering is not OK in the sense that it causes human misery and pain. But one will not be punished for it in the hereafter. One may experience progress and growth in life depending on how one deals with it.

It is simply part of the plan despite the fact god steps in and stops all kinds of horrors albeit it randomly and only when it supports faith.

That might be a very simplified view of how ago works in the world. This is where trust that God knows the end from the beginning and when to step in comes into play albeit some people have lost that trust. I’ve heard this argument many times from nonbelievers. I think that at its core this statement lacks clarity in understanding the nature of human freedom and independent inquiry and action. God can force no man/woman to do His will or choose heaven. Your statement falls into the category of ‘what if’s’. What if God could pitch a perfect no hitter. Could God create a rock heavier than He could lift. Etc.

God is subject to the agency of other sentient and independent beings. He will not use the power that He has to force us to do what is right. We’ve already been down this road. You’re making God into something that He knows He can’t be and would not want to be even if He could.

Deaths of innocent people should be mourned. Thankfully this life is not the end and there will be mercy and justice dispensed at the hands of the Eternal Judge.

Regards,
MG

[sock puppet]

Murder is not OK.* * *

Regards,
MG

Are you not LDS? Have you not read about the story of Laban being murdered at the beginning of the Book of Mormon? Of course murder is ok with God--he commanded it.

[Rivendale]

You are fixated on the idea that growth requires opposition.

In the sense of growth and human development towards perfection and becoming something better than we were, yes.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Like Polio and sepsis.

That’s a false analogy. Polio and sepsis don’t make you stronger. They actually do damage, sometimes fatal, to the human organism. However, how one deals with ailments which affect mankind can make one more resilient and/or more depressive and withdrawn/angry towards God and fellow human beings.

You suffer from the argue from ignorance at least two times in this thread. You say you can't see how so you assume suffering and murder is ok.

Murder is not OK. Suffering is a by product of being human. Growth does not occur through committing murder. One will be punished for doing so. Suffering is not OK in the sense that it causes human misery and pain. But one will not be punished for it in the hereafter. One may experience progress and growth in life depending on how one deals with it.

It is simply part of the plan despite the fact god steps in and stops all kinds of horrors albeit it randomly and only when it supports faith.

That might be a very simplified view of how ago works in the world. This is where trust that God knows the end from the beginning and when to step in comes into play albeit some people have lost that trust. I’ve heard this argument many times from nonbelievers. I think that at its core this statement lacks clarity in understanding the nature of human freedom and independent inquiry and action. God can force no man/woman to do His will or choose heaven. Your statement falls into the category of ‘what if’s’. What if God could pitch a perfect no hitter. Could God create a rock heavier than He could lift. Etc.

God is subject to the agency of other sentient and independent beings. He will not use the power that He has to force us to do what is right. We’ve already been down this road. You’re making God into something that He knows He can’t be and would not want to be even if He could.

Deaths of innocent people should be mourned. Thankfully this life is not the end and there will be mercy and justice dispensed at the hands of the Eternal Judge.

Regards,
MG

Yet you say growth requires opposition. Suffering is a byproduct of being human yet suffering is on a sliding scale of massive proportion. Are there some humans that are less human and somehow immune to suffering? If god knows the beginning to the end he knew people would be shot and hatcheted to death in southern Utah and he gave it two thumbs up. Are you telling me everyone was told what would/could happen and they went anyway? Don't buy it. And god has forced people. Flaming/drawn sword anyone? D&C 132 anyone? Hardening of Pharaoh's heart anyone?

[Morley]

The whole episode was evil. That doesn’t negate in any way everything else I’ve said.

Of course it does. Up until now you've been blaming the circumstances, the tensions, the history, the fog of war, and the Baker–Fancher party. You want to spread the blame around to everywhere but where it belongs. Not until explicitly challenged are you willing to call it what it was.

And the fact is, we don’t know for sure what part prayer and ACTUAL answers had to play. I would be interested in whether you might be able to give any firsthand affidavit from one of the perpetrators who said that God had ordered them to attack the Fancher party.

Of course we know what part prayer and actual answers had to play. Do you really think that God-fearing Mormons would have slaughtered an entire community of people without praying about it first? Do you think they would have acted without receiving what they thought was an answer? Surely the Holy Ghost was there to guide them in their quest. Certainly God himself would not have turned his back on such a request.


According to John D. Lee, Cedar City Stake President Isaac Haight opened the council meeting with a prayer:

“Haight then prayed, asking the Lord to direct them in this thing, that they might do His will. He prayed that if it was right to let the emigrants go in peace, they might be influenced so to act; but if it was the will of God that they should be destroyed, that the Spirit of the Almighty would so indicate.”

Lee said that after this prayer, the council concluded that the Spirit confirmed destruction was God’s will. Haight then told the militia that to disobey was to invite the curse of God. (Mormonism Unveiled, 1877, p 233.)


One of the participants, Nephi Johnson, also said they had prayed and received divine sanction:

“They told us they had sought the Lord in prayer, and the answer was that the emigrants must die.” (Juanita Brooks, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, 1950, p 131.)

What we do know, like I said, is that tensions were high and miscommunication and misunderstanding ruled the day. Emotions definitely got the better of those that killed innocent victims including children.

You don't slaughter a whole wagon train over 'misunderstandings' and 'miscommunication'. You're making excuses for what was certainly pure and naked evil.