Joseph’s First Vision - 1838 - fact and supposition

[malkie]

Joseph Smith recorded that God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him in a grove of trees near his parents’ home in western New York State when he was about 14 years old.

Did he? In the first account (written 27 years after it was supposed to have happened) he only mentions seeing one person.

Why wait 27 years to jot it down and mention it?
Why only mention seeing one person of you clearly saw two?

The time lapse and inconsistencies are what undermine the credibility of the story. Add to that the Church putting words into Joseph’s mouth (leading the witness I think that’s called), and we have a testimony that would not be believed under any other circumstances than “religion”.

It's too bad that the witness is not available for questioning about the first vision. If the church were to lead Joseph while he was under oath, I think that the critics' cross examination would be devastating, especially for someone like Hinckley. I doubt that it would ever be possible to "convict" Joseph of the doctrines that Hinckley "amplified" (according to MG) in the first vision narrative.

[malkie]

Perhaps I was wasting my time pursuing Hinckley's distortions of the truth, and MG was wasting his time defending Hinckley's "amplifications". We should both have declared it moot, Hinckley having died several prophets ago

Interaction with MG is always a waste of time if you are expecting anything other than to go round in circles with MG refusing to accept anything other than he’s right and you’re wrong. He’s special and you’re not. And he will never, ever, acknowledge when he’s made a mistake or that you’ve demonstrated a flaw in his thinking. And look out if you’re a female poster. You’re in for a whole load of disparaging sexism.

Now that’s the picture I’ve built up based on his interactions on this board. You’ve met him. Have you any reason to believe his behaviour in real life is similar to his behaviour on this board?

IHQ, I'm thinking about how to answer your question. I've written a response, but I feel as if I need to let it marinate for a while before posting. I will come back to this.

[Morley]

...he has come to realize, similar to Ross Douthat, that religion, and specifically Christianity, makes sense in a post twentieth century world that might have been a bit too 'full of themselves'.

Douthat hasn't 'come to realize' anything about Christianity. He's always been a believer. He famously writes about being a child and witnessing his parents speaking in tongues.

[Limnor]

You re-form every thought puzzle into a restorationist limerick that highlights and celebrates your own particular brand of 'creator God'.

This one made me smile. Couldn’t resist a stab at a limerick to reflect the thought:

Each topic is met with a nod,
Black or white, Christ or man, choose your god
Each thought others pick
Turns Restorationist, quick
And ends with your Creator God

[MG 2.0]

Interaction with MG is always a waste of time if you are expecting anything other than to go round in circles with MG refusing to accept anything other than he’s right and you’re wrong. He’s special and you’re not. And he will never, ever, acknowledge when he’s made a mistake or that you’ve demonstrated a flaw in his thinking. And look out if you’re a female poster. You’re in for a whole load of disparaging sexism.

Now that’s the picture I’ve built up based on his interactions on this board. You’ve met him. Have you any reason to believe his behaviour in real life is similar to his behaviour on this board?

IHQ, I'm thinking about how to answer your question. I've written a response, but I feel as if I need to let it marinate for a while before posting. I will come back to this.

It's been a while back now and memories fade but I remember malkie and his wife to be nice down to earth folks. Nothing really out of the ordinary. I would have liked to been with them longer to really 'talk' but we met in a parking lot, I think, at Home Depot. They were just passing through on their way to their destination or back home...I can't remember which.

Rather short visit.

Nice fellow. In the main, he still comes across that way to me. I know he has his own particular views as do I.

But that's OK.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Interaction with MG is always a waste of time if you are expecting anything other than to go round in circles with MG refusing to accept anything other than he’s right and you’re wrong. He’s special and you’re not. And he will never, ever, acknowledge when he’s made a mistake or that you’ve demonstrated a flaw in his thinking. And look out if you’re a female poster. You’re in for a whole load of disparaging sexism.

Now that’s the picture I’ve built up based on his interactions on this board. You’ve met him. Have you any reason to believe his behaviour in real life is similar to his behaviour on this board?

IHQ, I'm thinking about how to answer your question. I've written a response, but I feel as if I need to let it marinate for a while before posting. I will come back to this.

For clarity, I’m not asking for any in real life information to be revealed.

[malkie]

IHQ, I'm thinking about how to answer your question. I've written a response, but I feel as if I need to let it marinate for a while before posting. I will come back to this.

For clarity, I’m not asking for any in real life information to be revealed.

I would have been surprised if you were asking for in real life information - doesn't strike me as the kind of thing you'd do. It's more that I'm trying to decide how much I want to say.

[MG 2.0]

...he has come to realize, similar to Ross Douthat, that religion, and specifically Christianity, makes sense in a post twentieth century world that might have been a bit too 'full of themselves'.

Douthat hasn't 'come to realize' anything about Christianity. He's always been a believer. He famously writes about being a child and witnessing his parents speaking in tongues.

Yep, I think you're right. I listened to the book on Audible when I was out and about running/walking. He grew up in an evangelical/charismatic religious home/environment and later came to Catholicism. In my mind I thought he had gone through a period of unbelief as many do. My mind created a false memory and added in information that wasn't actually there.

Have you had an opportunity to listen to Micheal Shermer's chat with Charles Murray? Shermer, at the beginning of the interview I linked to earlier, gives a list of books to read. One of them is this one:

https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=6f285d69 ... OTM2NTE3Ng

It's written by a member of the LDS Church. The main thrust of the theme in the book is that evolution doesn't negate purpose but reveals it. That has been a belief of mine for a number of years now. Every so often I throw that into my posts. To the best of my recollection there hasn't been much response when I've brought it up.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

For clarity, I’m not asking for any in real life information to be revealed.

I would have been surprised if you were asking for in real life information - doesn't strike me as the kind of thing you'd do. It's more that I'm trying to decide how much I want to say.

Take your time, it'll be interesting to hear your perspective, as it's not one I'm likely to ever experience. MG has stated that if we ever had lunch, he would probably end up throwing his food at me. Of course he's also asked if my husband knows and 'approves of' what I post here.

[MG 2.0]

For clarity, I’m not asking for any in real life information to be revealed.

I would have been surprised if you were asking for in real life information - doesn't strike me as the kind of thing you'd do. It's more that I'm trying to decide how much I want to say.

malkie, if I remember correctly, you and your wife came through this area recently and I asked if you wanted to 'say hi' and visit again. Either you didn't respond or said that you'd rather not...if I remember correctly. Am I misremembering/misrepresenting? (it happens more than I would like)

I would have enjoyed meeting you again. The first time was too short.

Regards,
MG