God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

I’m honestly not sure what “agency” means in this game, maybe the landing spot defines the choice after the jump? Is this a premortal choice kind of agency?

[Gadianton]

He proudly asserts "God can write straight with crooked lines."

indeed, but he also asserts: " First of all, are we willing to accept...if there is a creator God...that He would "write straight with crooked lines?"

that leans toward saying if there is a God, we'd expect him to play 5d chess. Does MG grant that it's possible that God would write straight with straight lines?

His justice is not our justice, in that he's not bound by the same rules that he himself told us to live by.

I think clarifying what is meant could be really important here. One conception of God that permeates Mormonism is the masonic version of God, who is called the great architect. God has a house of order. God builds by exacting standards that require precision use of certain tools to ensure lines are straight. These symbols are all over the place in Mormonism especially the temple. There isn't any indication in Mormon scripture that God ever draws crooked lines -- confusion is the instrument of the devil. Strictly speaking, saying that God uses crooked lines is false doctrine, blasphemy.

The way out is to suggest 5d architecture, MG appears to mean the lines only appear crooked, from our perspective, not that they are really crooked. But that would be an important clarification.

[Fence Sitter]

I’m honestly not sure what “agency” means in this game, maybe the landing spot defines the choice after the jump? Is this a premortal choice kind of agency?

To be honest I am not sure what "God" means in this game, and I am pretty sure the OP doesn't either.

[MG 2.0]

Earlier gadianton brought up the 5d geometry metaphor. I think the agreed upon outcome of that part of the discussion was that agency and choice operate within a complex system that seemingly resists oversimplification. Without making/turning this thread into an LDS theology discussion...which I'd kind of like to stay away from for now...I'd have to say in answer to your concern about a "landing spot" after the "jump", that this indeed leans towards a form of premortal or predetermined choice.

At this point I'd still like to watch the discussion unfold. If agency throws a monkey wrench into the discussion then bookmark it for later.

I'm wondering if there might be someone that would want to push back against the Red Queen model? Or does the idea that God can write straight with crooked lines demand a Red Queen? I'd like to see that sketched out a bit more if anyone is disposed to do so. If not, that's fine.

For me, the Red Queen is a non-starter. Within LDS theology that seems to be recognized as the default position one would take. But I've made clear, I would like to have this thread go deeper than any one's interpretive position on LDS doctrine. Things are much BIGGER than that. If we shrink wrap the discussion into either bashing or supporting the LDS version of God, etc., we may lose the opportunity to dig a little deeper into "the nature of things as they are".

So I'm not going to bash right now.

If you want to, like I've said, ignore me for now. I am simply taking one position statement. God is love/loving. When I view the statement, "God can write straight with crooked lines", this axiom rises to the top of everything that comes thereafter. But that doesn't have to be true for everyone else.

Thus, the discussion. OK...stage right...observer mode again.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Well, almost.

The way out is to suggest 5d architecture, MG appears to mean the lines only appear crooked, from our perspective, not that they are really crooked. But that would be an important clarification.

I think that we may or may not understand and/or even know if they are crooked. It is going to vary from one individual to the next.

Earlier I asked, "Is it true that in non-Euclidean geometry, for example, that a "straight line" can curve across a sphere? What looks crooked in one system is straight in another.

Might we consider that a Being with unlimited power could make a crooked line serve the function of a straight one by altering the context in which it is interpreted?

We see crookedness because we see only part of the picture."

The question becomes, "What is God's perspective/view of things?"

Regards,
MG

[Rivendale]

Agency is why hell is locked from the inside. It is a self incriminating system which absolve God from all the jagged lines and instead become a self incriminating polygraph readout.


We are essentially punished for two dimensional thinking and deprived the right or privilege of glancing at Spock's 3 dimensional chess board. Of course Khan got what was coming to him.

[Gadianton]

At an individual level and the composite level of many people acting upon the whims of a leader or group movement. Often without giving things much thought.

Then randomness seems to set in. No real rhyme or reason until navigated towards meaning after the fact.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're getting at. How can life be a true test if God gives us an answer sheet for every little thing? But is this what the scriptures teach?

I think the scriptures are clear that God uses straight lines. Please cite an example anywhere that God draws crooked from any Mormon scripture. Even life as a test is on the terms of straightness, "we will prove them herewith to see if they do all things the Lord commands." The test is to complete assignments with exactness. Nothing more. I can appreciate the fact this doesn't feel right given life's complexities, but I didn't write the scriptures.

When Abraham was commanded to offer his son as a sacrifice, it's not a true dilemma because an angel told him to. When Nephi killed Laban, same thing, angel told him to. When Joseph Smith prayed to ask what church to join, God told him to join none of them. Straight up. When Elder Holland didn't know which road to take, God immediately jumped in to fill in the gap. When Nephi couldn't find food, the Liahona appeared and showed him exactly where to go.

The scripture formula appears to be 1) you have the commandments and instructions from leaders that tell you exactly what to do. 2) if the instructions are lacking, pray, and God will fill in the gap.

Remember, in my original post I'm asking that we deal with a hypothetical creator God who would ultimately like to see the greatest good be the result of His efforts

what do you mean by good? this could get circular really fast.

[Limnor]

Without making/turning this thread into an LDS theology discussion...which I'd kind of like to stay away from for now...I'd have to say in answer to your concern about a "landing spot" after the "jump", that this indeed leans towards a form of premortal or predetermined choice.

That ship sailed when the guardrails were put into place.

I don’t think we actually reached agreement. We laid out different ways of thinking, but I didn’t take that exchange as settling the issue. For me the question is still active—especially whether whatever outcome happens becomes confirmation after the fact. That concern seemed shared by most, if not all, of the players. The Red Queen problem reflects that, as I am understanding Morley’s point.

I’d prefer a way to affirm love, agency, and providence without retroactively declaring every landing spot intended. I don’t want watered down choice and no real risk. I’d prefer to be able to honestly say “this should not have happened.”

[malkie]

Ahhh - I'd completely forgotten that this topic was a game with rules.

Ha! Sometimes it sounds like what I imagine LDS Gospel Doctrine (or whatever it’s called) classes must be like.

For the most part, my experience of the LDS Gospel Doctrine class is that the questions expected/allowed for a particular lesson are laid out in the lesson manual, which the "students" are expected to read before class. And pretty much everyone knows what the "acceptable" answers are.

I've been asked on more than one occasion, as a student, to stick to the authorised Qs and As, and keep my unorthodox ideas to myself. Usually such a request is made on the grounds that there may be relatively new members in the class, with the implication that I could disrupt or damage someone's faith. Probably fair enough.

I don't think that my experience is rare - it's certainly not unique. For example, I'd be surprised if IHQ has not been "warned" about asking awkward questions, as that seems to be his MO.

[MG 2.0]

At an individual level and the composite level of many people acting upon the whims of a leader or group movement. Often without giving things much thought.

Then randomness seems to set in. No real rhyme or reason until navigated towards meaning after the fact.

I'm pretty sure I know what you're getting at. How can life be a true test if God gives us an answer sheet for every little thing? But is this what the scriptures teach?

I think the scriptures are clear that God uses straight lines. Please cite an example anywhere that God draws crooked from any Mormon scripture. Even life as a test is on the terms of straightness, "we will prove them herewith to see if they do all things the Lord commands." The test is to complete assignments with exactness. Nothing more. I can appreciate the fact this doesn't feel right given life's complexities, but I didn't write the scriptures.

When Abraham was commanded to offer his son as a sacrifice, it's not a true dilemma because an angel told him to. When Nephi killed Laban, same thing, angel told him to. When Joseph Smith prayed to ask what church to join, God told him to join none of them. Straight up. When Elder Holland didn't know which road to take, God immediately jumped in to fill in the gap. When Nephi couldn't find food, the Liahona appeared and showed him exactly where to go.

The scripture formula appears to be 1) you have the commandments and instructions from leaders that tell you exactly what to do. 2) if the instructions are lacking, pray, and God will fill in the gap.

Remember, in my original post I'm asking that we deal with a hypothetical creator God who would ultimately like to see the greatest good be the result of His efforts

what do you mean by good? this could get circular really fast.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I am suggesting God can write straight with crooked lines. I would suggest that it is through crooked lines...the paths we travel, etc... that God is able to do His work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Think of a horizontal oscilloscope pattern with vertical amplitudes, up and down, contrasted with a horizontal/forward progress and movement leading in one direction. An example of crooked lines being made straight even though constantly wandering off of the horizontal XY axis.

Yes, I know "good" is a value laden word. Rather than go circular I am happy to align the meaning to "God's will", "maximum happiness", "fulfilling one's purpose" "whatever maximizes the goodness and reduces the harm given/felt by others".

How the crooked lines interact with God's foreknowledge and power and the way in which He wields it is WAY above my paygrade. By the looks of it through your very thoughtful writings and those of others, these questions are of paramount importance. As they should be. My thinking is that we should not give up on God.

My personal preference is that rather than go circular I prefer to look for patterns where I can that seem, for me, to lead in one direction. I realize that others may see things differently. In my mind, however, that leads to a continuous 'loop' where nothing is ever resolved.

Regards,
MG