God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

I want to know does your God writing straight lines end with a judgement...

I think there is something in 'the plan' (unless you think it's a free for all) that allows for gradients of purpose/existence/progress in the afterlife. Exactly what that might look like is open to question. I think Jesus as Judge is found in there as part of the process. Otherwise things would get a bit 'willy-nilly' and chaotic, don't you think?

Somewhere I've heard that God's house is a house of order. How could it be any other way? Any ideas from your end?

Regards,
MG

Identifying the only alternative to gradients as “willy-nilly” or “chaos” seems like black-and-white thinking to me.

[I Have Questions]

I think that those that see fine tuning as an important 'evidence' for God are not on shaky ground. Francis Collins and others of his caliber.

I think that this particular topic ought/should be of great interest to any thinker.

Well, Francis Collins is free to join this board and get his ass handed to him on this one. It's a specious argument. Those who see fine tuning as important evidence for God are, in fact, on shaky ground. They deserve all the laughter we folks standing on top of the great and spacious building can muster.

In any causal chain, the events at the end of the chain are guaranteed to be highly sensitive to the events in the beginning. If the universe were totally devoid of life, whatever the state of that universe is, it would be just as dependent on its initial events as any other universe. It's a banal point. It's like saying the conditions within the Powerball tumbler were designed to produce the winning sequence because the person who won feels special. I's ridiculous.

It appears that Collins is another “the end justifies the means” kind of religionist…

As NIH director, Collins championed the unrestricted funding of embryonic stem-cell research, which involves the destruction of human embryos for medical research. And in 2021, Collins implemented the repeal of Trump-administration restrictions on the use of aborted fetal tissue in NIH-funded research.

These actions were only the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We now know that the NIH under Collins funded gruesome experiments utilizing body parts collected from aborted human babies to create “humanized mouse and rodent models with full-thickness human skin.” For the experiments, researchers at the University of Pittsburgh cut into tiny pieces “human fetal spleen, thymus, and liver organs” and “then transplanted the tissues and … stem cells into irradiated ... mice.” Researchers also sliced off skin from the scalp of the aborted babies and then grafted the fetal skin onto the mice.

Thanks to documents obtained through a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit, we also know about the NIH’s role in facilitating the use of baby parts in research on a nationwide level.

I’m not sure how MG thinks an appeal to Collins helps to make his case, whatever that case may be - I’m not sure anyone knows what case he’s making, himself included.

[MG 2.0]

I think there is something in 'the plan' (unless you think it's a free for all) that allows for gradients of purpose/existence/progress in the afterlife. Exactly what that might look like is open to question. I think Jesus as Judge is found in there as part of the process. Otherwise things would get a bit 'willy-nilly' and chaotic, don't you think?

Somewhere I've heard that God's house is a house of order. How could it be any other way? Any ideas from your end?

Regards,
MG

Identifying the only alternative to gradients as “willy-nilly” or “chaos” seems like black-and-white thinking to me.

How so? It seems to me as though these two options of organization have a wide set of options. Although, again if seems to me, none of them a "house of order".

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Identifying the only alternative to gradients as “willy-nilly” or “chaos” seems like black-and-white thinking to me.

How so? It seems to me as though these two options of organization have a wide set of options. Although, again if seems to me, none of them a "house of order".

Regards,
MG

Because order doesn’t necessarily require a tiered hierarchy. It could also be relational or participatory. Why assume that without stratification things become willy-nilly? Ironically infinite regression causes some willy-nilliness of its own.

[MG 2.0]

How so? It seems to me as though these two options of organization have a wide set of options. Although, again if seems to me, none of them a "house of order".

Regards,
MG

Because order doesn’t necessarily require a tiered hierarchy. It could also be relational or participatory. Why assume that without stratification things become willy-nilly? Ironically infinite regression causes some willy-nilliness of its own.

I think that the LDS Plan of Salvation is relational and participatory. But it falls within a framework of organization rather than randomness/chaos (meaning disorganization).

LDS views are that 'God's House'...in all of its ramifications...is a house of order. We either choose to participate and have 'relationship' according to the dictates/parameters of that order (organization) or we don't. Either way, we choose and God's house is composed of "many mansions".

I've said many times that I believe we "choose our own adventure", and it is an ongoing and eternal process (progress). I suppose there is a place for those that want to do their own thing and/or not fully want to do God's thing. That would be the merciful thing to do which would also demonstrate God's grace in conjunction with His justice.

With Christ as mediator. That shows "hierarchy" right there, doesn't it? Jesus subjected himself to the Father and yet they are One and are at the top of any organization which includes the billions of created beings that they mentor/oversee.

I think hierarchy oftentimes leaves a bad taste in the mouths of some people.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I don’t object to order. I just think of order more in Pauline terms, as participation in a Body, where hierarchy is self-giving rather than playing out roles in a recurring script.

I’m pretty sure you won’t engage to understand but also don’t mind that much.

[MG 2.0]

I don’t object to order. I just think of order more in Pauline terms, as participation in a Body, where hierarchy is self-giving rather than playing out roles in a recurring script.

I’m pretty sure you won’t engage to understand but also don’t mind that much.

1 Corinthians 12:21

The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”

Ephesians 4:11-12

“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

Again, we have order. There seems to be a hierarchy. It would seem to me that if God's House/church was a house of order anciently that we might also see that as part of a church that makes claims to being Christ's church.

What is there to engage with here?

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

I don’t object to order. I just think of order more in Pauline terms, as participation in a Body, where hierarchy is self-giving rather than playing out roles in a recurring script.

I’m pretty sure you won’t engage to understand but also don’t mind that much.

Bingo.

[Limnor]

What is there to engage with here?

Good point.

[MG 2.0]

What is there to engage with here?

Good point.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple. And we make it so complicated.

Jacob 4:

8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

9 For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

10 Wherefore, brethren, seek not to counsel the Lord, but to take counsel from his hand. For behold, ye yourselves know that he counseleth in wisdom, and in justice, and in great mercy, over all his works.

11 Wherefore, beloved brethren, be reconciled unto him through the atonement of Christ, his Only Begotten Son, and ye may obtain a resurrection, according to the power of the resurrection which is in Christ, and be presented as the first-fruits of Christ unto God, having faith, and obtained a good hope of glory in him before he manifesteth himself in the flesh.

12 And now, beloved, marvel not that I tell you these things; for why not speak of the atonement of Christ, and attain to a perfect knowledge of him, as to attain to the knowledge of a resurrection and the world to come?

13 Behold, my brethren, he that prophesieth, let him prophesy to the understanding of men; for the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls. But behold, we are not witnesses alone in these things; for God also spake them unto prophets of old.

Regards,
MG