God can write straight with crooked lines.

[I Have Questions]

If we are part of one Body now under one Head, why would that same Body become permanently tiered later?

Ephesians 4:5

One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

John 14:1-2

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

A modern day Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball said:

”The age-old concept of heaven and hell is erroneous. It is not true that there is but one dividing line between heaven and hell and that all who barely fail to reach heaven will be doomed to a fire and brimstone hell, and conversely untrue, that all who are just a little better than the condemned ones will go to a common heaven, there equally to play harps or to sing praises eternally. This is a false concept. The scriptures have made it clear that every soul will pay penalties for evil deeds and receive rewards for good deeds and all will be judged according to their works. They will not be put into two categories but in as many as there are individuals who have different degrees of accomplishment and performance, and this is just. Think for one moment how unjust it would be to put all law-breakers-the murderer, adulterer, thief, and car-parking violator-in the same penitentiary with the same punishments, deprivations, and the same period to serve; how unjust to put in the same world [of] development and happiness and glory the person who has merely confessed the name of Christ with all those who not only confessed it but lived his every commandment and perfected their lives and became godlike in all their attributes. God is just.”

How do you, as a Christian, see yourself in the afterlife? Say in comparison with an active Latter-day Saint who professes the name of Jesus Christ and has participated in the covenants/ordinances of the church? Do you see gradations in the next world or are you more comfortable with the concept of one Heaven and one Hell?

What kind/type of baptism is the "one baptism" being referred to in Ephesians?

If Heaven isn't "tiered", how do you see it? Who are the folks that go to Hell? Muslims? Catholics? Buddhists? Hindus? Mormons?

You do believe in Hell, right? There are so many baptisms and modes of baptism among Christians. Are they all "saving" or equally valid in the eyes of God?

Regards,
MG

Where are the links to the references you’ve quoted? Or did you just harvest them from an AI search that you obviously cannot link to?

[Limnor]

This was my question: If we are part of one Body now under one Head, why would that same Body become permanently tiered later?

I think your response is “mansions?” Please clarify if that is so, because it isn’t clear.

So, was “mansions” your response to my question?

[MG 2.0]

This was my question: If we are part of one Body now under one Head, why would that same Body become permanently tiered later?

I think your response is “mansions?” Please clarify if that is so, because it isn’t clear.

So, was “mansions” your response to my question?

Yes. And I realize there are various interpretations of what this means.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I believe there is one heaven—Union with God—and understand “mansions” to be dwelling places within God...

What does that mean?

I generally think of hell the way most Christians would think of it—a firey place of eternal torment, but there are glimpses of other understandings of the final end place of the damned. Gehenna and Sheol are mentioned, and the firey lake.

That sounds like a place I would not want to be. I hope Mormons are not automatically consigned to that state forever and ever and ever. Or our Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist friends.

The text isn’t as clear about who finally ends up there.

John Calvin didn't go quite as far as you in describing a literal "fiery place of eternal torment". Where do you get your personal beliefs from in this matter? John Wesley? If so, is one right and the other wrong?

I believe salvation is through Christ, but I trust God’s justice and mercy in how that is applied with regard to who is saved. In Romans, gentiles are mentioned who show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, so I’m not quick to determine who goes where. C.S. Lewis thought hell as more self-exclusion than assignment, and I lean toward that understanding.

That is a moderate approach. But then you go on to say that C.S Lewis taught that people will have the choice of "self-excluding" themselves from the fiery pit of hell you've referred to? What person in their right mind wouldn't do that?

“One baptism” refers to incorporation into Christ, whether through water or by the Spirit—I lean toward the idea that Jesus baptizes with the fire and Holy Spirit and away from water baptism automatically resulting in regeneration.

Is this the example Jesus Himself demonstrated? Or did He choose to be baptized in a particular way (water/immersion) by a particular person (authority?) rather than an other?

So baptism, as I see it, is a sign and seal of union with Christ...

I think most Christians, including Latter-day Saints, would agree with you on that point.

...but salvation rests in Christ himself, not in the act of “correct denomination” or institutionally authorized membership or baptism.

So to be clear, Baptists, Catholics, Evangelicals, Assembly of God, Latter-day Saints...they're all equally considered by you to be "one faith, one Lord, one baptism"? As long as they worship Christ in the way/manner they have determined to be 'correct'?

Did I answer everything you wanted?

Yes, but you did spur some further questions in my mind as I thought about what you said.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Are you really confused about what I mean? Do you really want to engage to understand?

But ok what it means to me is similar to the booths or tents mentioned in the Old Testament, a dwelling place within God and participation in God’s life. I don’t understand it as separate ontological compartments or tiered kingdoms or levels.

I really don’t know why anyone would consciously choose flames. I think it means attempting to achieve holiness or maybe the throne of God through self effort or by force. Sometimes I think of God as being like a fire—He is described that way—and I think if you are not inside then you are in the fire at the edges. The “fire” language may be completely metaphorical for what separation from God might feel like. My thoughts aren’t aligned with Calvin or Wesley as far as I know. It’s just my reading of the text.

I’m not denying the importance of water baptism or Christ’s example. But I do think there is a difference between institutional authorization or in Christ Himself. John the Baptist said Jesus would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit—I think there is a distinction there, and believe Paul identifies it as well.

I believe salvation rests in Christ and probably extends beyond denominational lines. I don’t think anyone has it 100% right, but also don’t think that denominational membership equates to automatic damnation. I mentioned the idea in Romans that people have God written on their hearts—that’s as good a summary of my thinking as anything. I don’t assume God’s mercy is limited to those who get every detail right.

[Limnor]

I want to be clear about something. I don’t spend my time thinking about who’s going to hell or who isn’t. My “daily walk” for lack of a better term is a reliance on God to embody the mercy God has given me and reflecting that to others.

[Limnor]

That sounds like a place I would not want to be. I hope Mormons are not automatically consigned to that state forever and ever and ever. Or our Muslim, Hindu, and Buddhist friends.

-snip-

John Calvin didn't go quite as far as you in describing a literal "fiery place of eternal torment". Where do you get your personal beliefs from in this matter? John Wesley? If so, is one right and the other wrong?

Just a reminder:

Mosiah 3:24 And thus saith the Lord: They shall stand as a bright testimony against this people, at the judgment day; whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

[MG 2.0]

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

Would you agree that the word 'as' makes all the difference?

I've always had a hard time with the Devil and a pitchfork standing amidst the flames of a literal burning hell.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I want to be clear about something. I don’t spend my time thinking about who’s going to hell or who isn’t.

But God does, right? Thus, He has a focus on who is going to be eternally scorched. Ouch!

Mean God.

What kind of flames are we talking about? Burning plastic? Burning wood? Nuclear firestorm?

I think traditional Christians sometimes have to tie themselves in knots taking the Bible strictly/only literally.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

27 And their torment is as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever. Thus hath the Lord commanded me. Amen.

Would you agree that the word 'as' makes all the difference?

Yes. So you’d also agree that, based on that word “as”, it’s true to say Jesus only sweated profusely in Gethsemene, he did not literally bleed? Luke 22:44

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Unfortunately, when writing his fictional Mosiah passages, Smith shows that he misread the passage in Luke, and neglected to take into account that all important “as”. Mosiah 3:7

And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

Keep in mind this is meant to portray a prediction of what was going to happen to Jesus, whereas the Luke passage is a description of what supposedly actually happened.