How often "plates" are discussed here.

[Limnor]

Anticipated rebuttal: numbers aren't everything! [Although apparently 385,490 baptisms worldwide is a sign of vitality.]

Missed this, but yep.

[MG 2.0]

It just seems to me that in the Secular West of wealth and privilege we are seeing an erosion of simple faith and acknowledgement of God as a given. So many folks are 'puffed up' in their knowledge/attainments/prestige. That seems to be a stumbling black to faith in a divine Creator.

That's pretty much all I'm saying. I am not an expert in Islamic prayer or practice. And it may be a rote practice. Nonetheless, it puts God into the culture rather than taking Him out as our secular culture seems wont to do more and more it seems.

Yeah, it sometimes puts "God into the culture" so much that people fly planes into buildings in his name.

Putting "God into the culture" was the justification for the mullahs taking power in the Iranian Revolution--you know, the one that threw out the secular government of the Shah and inserted the rule of the God-centered mullahs to rule Iran and stir up crap in the Near East.

Yes, please, let's get rid of the failed secular democracies of Europe and the US and turn ourselves into God-fearing theocracies. Which theocratic government--past or present--do you see as the model we should be emulating?

I make no allowance or excuse for fundamentalists of any stripe that do physical harm to others as a result of their false ideologies or religious fanaticism.

I think you understand/know the point I am making.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I make no allowance or excuse for fundamentalists of any stripe that do physical harm to others as a result of their false ideologies or religious fanaticism.

Unless he’s named Nephi.

[Rivendale]

I make no allowance or excuse for fundamentalists of any stripe that do physical harm to others as a result of their false ideologies or religious fanaticism.

Unless he’s named Nephi.

Or Porter Rockwell, William (Wild Bill) Hickman and Joseph Smith.

[Limnor]

Unless he’s named Nephi.

Or Porter Rockwell, William (Wild Bill) Hickman and Joseph Smith.

It gets complicated. You see, those guys were right so they’re allowed.

[MG 2.0]

One might say that God...being greater than they all...was the Author of our progression. He knew the way. He had traveled that road perfectly. Yeah, I know I'm using "Mormonese".

If he had travelled the road perfectly, you're suggesting he was also a man following the instructions of his God. He was not the author. And you're right, this is more Mormonese, throwing clusters of words together without thinking about what they mean, but having an internal sense of how they flow when surrounded by other believers. On a message board with people who either don't speak that language or refuse to speak it, you should either fully put your ideas together before you write them, or just as well, after you write them, go back and read, pretend you are a non-Mormon, and think about what you wrote is really saying, and make adjustments as you spot the confusion. You had some solid momentum going for about three paragraphs of your last post, so I know it's in your capabilities.

Got any better idea?

You mean, do I have any better ideas to salvage the Mormonese sentiment that God is behind us all? No, because you didn't need to make the statement in the first place. You got carried away in the thought of "creator God" and apparently didn't have in mind in that moment that we weren't created. When that's pointed out, you reinterpret the words you originally used as meaning something you didn't originally intend. But you didn't think about that either. In addition to God not being the author, as he learned the way from his own father, succeeding in the journey can hardly be credited to God to this extent.

If life is like a difficult Journey, then getting detailed instructions form somebody who succeeded on the route will help you very little without significant natural abilities or skills of your own. If a pro alpinist who has climbed K2 sits down with you and explains in detail how to get to the top, and what you need to do to get there, your chances go from near zero percent to near zero percent. Somebody with significant skills could forgo the instructions and try it on their own and perhaps have a 50% chance. So no, God is not "behind us all" as one who gave us the map showing the route he used to ascend K2.

I use mormonese purposefully. Why? As I’ve said many times on this board…I have not seen ANYONE offer an attractive substitute/alternative to the Plan of Salvation and Redemptive Power of Jesus Christ to save and exalt us into place of eternal happiness and an earthly life unblemished by sin as we repent and forgive others. At the end of the day all that is offered/accomplished is a furtherment of one or more false philosophies, all resulting in a life without God in the world and absence of blessings that could have been obtained in the next.

In my opinion the Apostle Peter’s confession is just as relevant as it ever was.

Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 6:68

and that there are MANY who are:

Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:7

When I went through a period of unbelief/faith crisis a number of years ago I gradually came to see that life without belief/obedience to God would be something less than what it could be. I searched, pondered, and prayed to understand/know whether or not there was a creator God and whether He had/has a plan for ALL His children. I came to believe that He does.

At the end of the day I believe this scripture in the Book of Mormon has relevancy to the ‘life of the mind’:

And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

1 Nephi 11:17

It is good to have questions and pursue answers. My experience is that there are some answers that are not going to be forthcoming in this life although some things have become more clear. We see through a glass darkly. I do believe that if we seek truth and ask God…He will answer and/or provide opportunities to learn and decide to choose or disbelieve. Most things in life are double sided coins. There seems to almost always be a ‘flip side’ to every question.

But not all. That’s where faith comes in. The life of faith in the LDS Church is not a cakewalk but it is rewarding/challenging/fruitful.

Earlier I pointed at you and said that your views ultimately end in emptiness as it relates to being able to fill your cup with the truth that saves and exalts. But I also said that for all intents and purposes, day to day, you are most likely a good man, a good son, a good father/husband (although I don’t know if you’re married and have children).

Truthfully, if I felt that you or any other secular humanist had something better to offer than LDS’ism, I’d bite.

I just don’t see it.

That’s why I stated that the poorest and most humble people, temporally or spiritually, are more likely to see the truth (or portion thereof) than the mighty and the learned as I would assume you count yourself as being.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Is MG supposed to be one of the spiritually poor and humble? I’m not seeing it. Brief evidence of the contradiction: the simultaneous feigned humility of “I don’t know everything” followed by “Everyone else’s views end in emptiness.” There’s a strong sense of lack of self-awareness here.

MG can you hear yourself?

[Marcus]

...I use mormonese purposefully. Why? As I’ve said many times on this board…I have not seen ANYONE offer an attractive substitute/alternative to the Plan of Salvation and Redemptive Power of Jesus Christ to save and exalt us into place of eternal happiness and an earthly life unblemished by sin as we repent and forgive others...

So? It is not anyone's obligation to provide a substitute that fits mentalgymnast's requirements and beliefs.

...At the end of the day all that is offered/accomplished is a furtherment of one or more false philosophies, all resulting in a life without God in the world and absence of blessings that could have been obtained in the next...

Again, what is the problem? Those are mentalgymnast's beliefs about what others believe. I don't think his approach is logical or beneficial, but it's his right to have it. No one has any obligation to satisfy his requirements, and if he is going to continue to abrasively disparage others positions, he shouldn't be surprised when others abrasively disparage his.

As an example, one would think that if mentalgymnasts really believe they are on the path to exaltation, they would speak to and about others accordingly. Exaltation and badmouthing your neighbor don't seem to go hand in hand, so clearly mentalgymnast has stumbled on a step or two along his self-proclaimed glorious path.

...We see through a glass darkly. I do believe that if we seek truth and ask God…He will answer and/or provide opportunities to learn and decide to choose or disbelieve...

What 'we' is mentalgymnast referring to? He needs to speak for himself. There is no 'we' here.

...Earlier I pointed at you and said that your views ultimately end in emptiness as it relates to being able to fill your cup with the truth that saves and exalts. But I also said that for all intents and purposes, day to day, you are most likely a good man, a good son, a good father/husband (although I don’t know if you’re married and have children)...

Lol. Another passive aggressive back-handed insult. That exaltation anticipation is turning mentalgymnast into quite the pre-god.

[Marcus]

Is MG supposed to be one of the spiritually poor and humble? I’m not seeing it. Brief evidence of the contradiction: the simultaneous feigned humility of “I don’t know everything” followed by “Everyone else’s views end in emptiness.” There’s a strong sense of lack of self-awareness here.

MG can you hear yourself?

Good question.

[Res Ipsa]

If he had travelled the road perfectly, you're suggesting he was also a man following the instructions of his God. He was not the author. And you're right, this is more Mormonese, throwing clusters of words together without thinking about what they mean, but having an internal sense of how they flow when surrounded by other believers. On a message board with people who either don't speak that language or refuse to speak it, you should either fully put your ideas together before you write them, or just as well, after you write them, go back and read, pretend you are a non-Mormon, and think about what you wrote is really saying, and make adjustments as you spot the confusion. You had some solid momentum going for about three paragraphs of your last post, so I know it's in your capabilities.

…
You mean, do I have any better ideas to salvage the Mormonese sentiment that God is behind us all? No, because you didn't need to make the statement in the first place. You got carried away in the thought of "creator God" and apparently didn't have in mind in that moment that we weren't created. When that's pointed out, you reinterpret the words you originally used as meaning something you didn't originally intend. But you didn't think about that either. In addition to God not being the author, as he learned the way from his own father, succeeding in the journey can hardly be credited to God to this extent.

If life is like a difficult Journey, then getting detailed instructions form somebody who succeeded on the route will help you very little without significant natural abilities or skills of your own. If a pro alpinist who has climbed K2 sits down with you and explains in detail how to get to the top, and what you need to do to get there, your chances go from near zero percent to near zero percent. Somebody with significant skills could forgo the instructions and try it on their own and perhaps have a 50% chance. So no, God is not "behind us all" as one who gave us the map showing the route he used to ascend K2.

I use mormonese purposefully. Why? As I’ve said many times on this board…I have not seen ANYONE offer an attractive substitute/alternative to the Plan of Salvation and Redemptive Power of Jesus Christ to save and exalt us into place of eternal happiness and an earthly life unblemished by sin as we repent and forgive others. At the end of the day all that is offered/accomplished is a furtherment of one or more false philosophies, all resulting in a life without God in the world and absence of blessings that could have been obtained in the next.

In my opinion the Apostle Peter’s confession is just as relevant as it ever was.

Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life.

John 6:68

and that there are MANY who are:

Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

2 Timothy 3:7

When I went through a period of unbelief/faith crisis a number of years ago I gradually came to see that life without belief/obedience to God would be something less than what it could be. I searched, pondered, and prayed to understand/know whether or not there was a creator God and whether He had/has a plan for ALL His children. I came to believe that He does.

At the end of the day I believe this scripture in the Book of Mormon has relevancy to the ‘life of the mind’:

And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.

1 Nephi 11:17

It is good to have questions and pursue answers. My experience is that there are some answers that are not going to be forthcoming in this life although some things have become more clear. We see through a glass darkly. I do believe that if we seek truth and ask God…He will answer and/or provide opportunities to learn and decide to choose or disbelieve. Most things in life are double sided coins. There seems to almost always be a ‘flip side’ to every question.

But not all. That’s where faith comes in. The life of faith in the LDS Church is not a cakewalk but it is rewarding/challenging/fruitful.

Earlier I pointed at you and said that your views ultimately end in emptiness as it relates to being able to fill your cup with the truth that saves and exalts. But I also said that for all intents and purposes, day to day, you are most likely a good man, a good son, a good father/husband (although I don’t know if you’re married and have children).

Truthfully, if I felt that you or any other secular humanist had something better to offer than LDS’ism, I’d bite.

I just don’t see it.

That’s why I stated that the poorest and most humble people, temporally or spiritually, are more likely to see the truth (or portion thereof) than the mighty and the learned as I would assume you count yourself as being.

Regards,
MG

This is a classic logical fallacy. The personal appeal of a hypothesis has nothing to do with its truth. Personally, I find nothing objectionable about adopting a belief system for aesthetic reasons, as long as no one terrors to sell it as truth. Or, if the truth is depressing, just deal with it. Finding a way to make your life meaningful is something we all do.