WHO or WHICH is most important?

[Limnor]

The scapegoat you have mentioned carries the same symbology.

[LittleNipper]

The REALITY is that the word of GOD can have multiple meanings. And ALL of them can be entirely correct. The Bible is (unlike all other books) is the LIVING WORD OF GOD.

NO! Reality has become the interpretation of religionists playing God to satisfy their faithful imaginations.

For example, Ps. 22:16:

1) Propoganda:
“they [animalistic enemies] pierced [crucified] my hands and my feet.”

2) Reality:
“they [animalistic enemies] are at my hands and my feet.”

This has absolutely nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus that would take place a thousand years in the future. David did not present himself as a type for a suffering Messiah being symbolically crucified. What about St Paul (1 Cor 1:13), was he crucified for you too?

It would seem that you are guilty of your own accusations. I can imagine what you'll say regarding the prophetic message found concerning Christ in Isaiah 53 that sounds exactly like one is reading from the New Testament and not centuries earlier in the Old Testament.

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

[bill4long]

If you take the metaphor to its logical conclusion, you might realize why Jesus "becoming sin" doesn't work theologically.

Fair enough, but the notion isn’t that Jesus “became” sinful, or that He sinned. Rather the argument is that he bore sin, much as the bronze serpent symbolized the curse that was being healed.

Is there something specific you had in mind?

It doesn't work as an analogy because Jesus wasn't a demon. For it to be analogous, this would have had to be true: "The snake on the pole was to the snakes on the ground, as Jesus was to demons." But Jesus wasn't a demon (apparently.) Taking on the sin-guilt does not make one a demon. It doesn't change the nature of the sacrificial victim. A fitting analogy to Jesus would have been Moses taking a clean (innocent) animal, confessing Israel's sins upon up, and nailing it up on the pole and killing it. Then having the Israelites look up at for their healing.

If the Christian view of the Neshustan incident is correct - that it was meant to be an analogical prophecy about Jesus - then my analogy is superior to Moses's. I think it more plausible that there was no "message" of the Neshustan beyond the face value. But if there was one, it would have been more analogically consistent that the snake on the pole represented the death of the leader of the snakes (the head demon) or something like that. And that by looking up at it, and assenting to the head snake's demise, the Israelite was symbolically rejecting the influence of the snakes (demons.)

[Limnor]

This is a fair objection, though I wonder if we are thinking about symbology differently. Is it necessary to think a symbol should represent a thing’s nature? Or could the serpent symbolize the curse that Jesus bears without it changing His nature?

I want to understand your objection more.

[LittleNipper]

Fair enough, but the notion isn’t that Jesus “became” sinful, or that He sinned. Rather the argument is that he bore sin, much as the bronze serpent symbolized the curse that was being healed.

Is there something specific you had in mind?

It doesn't work as an analogy because Jesus wasn't a demon. For it to be analogous, this would have had to be true: "The snake on the pole was to the snakes on the ground, as Jesus was to demons." But Jesus wasn't a demon (apparently.) Taking on the sin-guilt does not make one a demon. It doesn't change the nature of the sacrificial victim. A fitting analogy to Jesus would have been Moses taking a clean (innocent) animal, confessing Israel's sins upon up, and nailing it up on the pole and killing it. Then having the Israelites look up at for their healing.

If the Christian view of the Neshustan incident is correct - that it was meant to be an analogical prophecy about Jesus - then my analogy is superior to Moses's. I think it more plausible that there was no "message" of the Neshustan beyond the face value. But if there was one, it would have been more analogically consistent that the snake on the pole represented the death of the leader of the snakes (the head demon) or something like that. And that by looking up at it, and assenting to the head snake's demise, the Israelite was symbolically rejecting the influence of the snakes (demons.)

Consider the following:

The word Nehushtan occurs one time in the Bible, in 2 Kings 18:4, “He [Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).”

Second Kings 18:4 points back to Numbers 21:6–9, “Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. And the people came to Moses and said, ‘We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.”

In the time between Moses and Hezekiah, the Israelites began worshiping the “fiery serpent” Moses made out of bronze. It is only mentioned in connection with Hezekiah’s reforms, but the Nehushtan worship could have been taking place long before Hezekiah. While it is understandable how an item that brought miraculous healing could become an object of worship, it was still blatant disobedience to God’s commands (Exodus 20:4–5). The bronze serpent was God’s method of deliverance during the incident recorded in Number 21. There is no indication that God intended it to ever be used again.

While He does not refer to it as “Nehushtan,” Jesus does mention the bronze serpent in John 3:14, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up.” Just as anyone who was bitten by a serpent could be healed by looking to the bronze serpent Moses lifted up, so can anyone look to Jesus, who was lifted up on the cross, to be spiritually healed, delivered, and saved.

Interestingly, the word Nehushtan appears to simply mean “piece of brass.” Perhaps Hezekiah named it “Nehushtan” to remind people that it was only a piece of brass. It had no power in it. Even in the Numbers 21 incident, it was God who healed, not Nehushtan.

Nehushtan should be a powerful reminder to us all that even good things—and good people—can become idols in our lives. Our praise, worship, and adoration are to be directed to God alone. Nothing else, regardless of its amazing history, is worthy.
This article is to be found here: https://www.gotquestions.org/Nehushtan.html

And in fact Jesus Christ is worthy of praise/worship only because HE IS GOD!

[Shulem]

It would seem that you are guilty of your own accusations. I can imagine what you'll say regarding the prophetic message found concerning Christ in Isaiah 53 that sounds exactly like one is reading from the New Testament and not centuries earlier in the Old Testament.

The early Christians took Isaiah 53 and converted it into something it was never meant to represent and twisted and toyed with it in order to dish up and serve an Isaiah offering which the prophet never offered! In context, the verses in question are metaphorical or an allegorical description of the nation of Israel as the servant of the Lord. The 6th century BC writings are about the Jewish people during the Babylonian exile and relates their sufferings under those conditions. Isaiah accounts for the suffering of the Jews in those times and thereafter and God’s ability to ultimately save them. It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with Jesus Christ or a coming Messiah who would be crucified as recorded in the Book of Mormon. That is pure fantasy made up by guilty Christian writers who hijacked and ravaged those verses just as Joseph Smith did when inventing things in the Book of Mormon.

[Shulem]

While He does not refer to it as “Nehushtan,” Jesus does mention the bronze serpent in John 3:14, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up.” Just as anyone who was bitten by a serpent could be healed by looking to the bronze serpent Moses lifted up, so can anyone look to Jesus, who was lifted up on the cross, to be spiritually healed, delivered, and saved.

I find it quite reasonable that a wise Jewish teacher/sage (Jesus) did refer to the serpent as having healing effects on the soul and that those who consider *his* teachings can liken it to healing/saving effects of God. It’s an analogy that no doubt guilty Christian writers expanded and embellished when likening the pole/snake to that of the cross/Christ. The Christian writers remind me of Joseph Smith! Inventers of God’s word.

[Shulem]

Interestingly, the word Nehushtan appears to simply mean “piece of brass.” Perhaps Hezekiah named it “Nehushtan” to remind people that it was only a piece of brass. It had no power in it. Even in the Numbers 21 incident, it was God who healed, not Nehushtan.

The wooden Ark of the Covenant and cherubim being made of pure gold was more of the same. As you know, the Ark was taken out in public and used for all kinds of events and the people looked at it as a manifestation of the power of God. The Ark was considered a sacred object and handled with great care.

Cool.

[LittleNipper]

It would seem that you are guilty of your own accusations. I can imagine what you'll say regarding the prophetic message found concerning Christ in Isaiah 53 that sounds exactly like one is reading from the New Testament and not centuries earlier in the Old Testament.

The early Christians took Isaiah 53 and converted it into something it was never meant to represent and twisted and toyed with it in order to dish up and serve an Isaiah offering which the prophet never offered! In context, the verses in question are metaphorical or an allegorical description of the nation of Israel as the servant of the Lord. The 6th century BC writings are about the Jewish people during the Babylonian exile and relates their sufferings under those conditions. Isaiah accounts for the suffering of the Jews in those times and thereafter and God’s ability to ultimately save them. It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with Jesus Christ or a coming Messiah who would be crucified as recorded in the Book of Mormon. That is pure fantasy made up by guilty Christian writers who hijacked and ravaged those verses just as Joseph Smith did when inventing things in the Book of Mormon.

The Book of Mormon is fake. The Old Testament is right there for anyone who isn't out to twist or distort the truth to read and compare. If you wish to insist Christians changed everything, that's upon your head. Satan did and does the very same thing you do. He indeed says, "Does it really say..." And his intent to simply deny the truth and confuse others.
Isaiah Chapter 53 יְשַׁעְיָהוּ
א מִי הֶאֱמִין, לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ; וּזְרוֹעַ יְהוָה, עַל-מִי נִגְלָתָה. 1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
ב וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה--לֹא-תֹאַר לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ. 2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ. 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה. 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֺנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ. 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲוֺן כֻּלָּנוּ. 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו. 7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו. 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'
י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי--אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע--בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֺנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל. 11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ. {פ} 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[Shulem]

The Book of Mormon is fake. The Old Testament is right there for anyone who isn't out to twist or distort the truth to read and compare.

Scholars (especially Jewish) have thoroughly compared Old Testament 53 with that of the New Testament narrative and the Jews are not buying the lies anymore than Christian evangelicals are buying the lies Joseph Smith made up about the same ideas found in the Book of Mormon where things are spelled out clearly, precisely, and exactly as it should be if the prophet was really SEEING (seer) a Messiah being tortured and crucified. Isaiah saw NOTHING of Jesus Christ and was speaking of the centuries involving his times and shortly thereafter according to his own religious ideas.

You are welcome to continue to believe those lies all you want, just like the Mormons. I totally get it and grant you that right and privilege in making what you want out of religion. Do and think whatever you want, LittleNipper!