Nephi-ception

[Limnor]

An effort to continue this line of discussion without derailing:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=161130&start=30

Shulem (and anyone else interested)—I think it’s interesting that the Book of Mormon reuses names. Like Nephi, Alma, Helaman, Moroni, and so on.

Since you’ve indicated you think Joseph “is” Nephi, do you think each Nephi represents Joseph? Or is it restricted to the first Nephi? Do you think Joseph represents the others (like Alma) also? Or are there other real-world people represented in the story? For example, Lehi is probably Joseph Smith Sr., correct?

[Shulem]

Joseph Smith had already formulated in his mind prior to dictating the lost 116 page manuscript that the Book of Mormon would cover a thousand year time span and many of the stories that would unfold were already played out in his mind to some degree. He would then bring the stories to life during dictation and flesh them out as he went along. The loss of the 116 page manuscript nearly killed the Book of Mormon and ended all hope in continuing with the project but Smith came up with the brilliant idea of shifting the first person narrative from Lehi (Joseph Sr) to Nephi (Joseph Jr) and could rework the story as told through the eyes of the son rather than the father. The new version was reworked all the way down to King Benjamin's reign after which new ground and material could continue from that point.

Definitely, Mormon was Joseph Smith in disguise having all kinds of fun playing out his fantasies. I think Smith had fun expressing characters in a multiplicity of ways and was creative and somewhat illusive in doing so. The hard and fast rule of thumb in the structure of the novel is the chronology. He was very tight and precise with that and paid close attention to the timeline by following a preset set of numbers and placing them within the story as he went. The chronology was very difficult to maintain but the stories were simply creative constructions in telling stories.

I like the comments you made on the other thread concerning how Ammon used guile to convert others. That is exactly how Joseph Smith operated in his own ministry, guile and lots of it which he considered was wise and harmless but for the ultimate purpose in glorifying God.

And yes, Joseph Smith was Nephi and Nephi was a Smith. After Nephi (son of Lehi) died the name continued in the kingly line by the name of Nephi in honor of the name Smith. That is a Joseph Smith secret.

[Limnor]

If “Nephi” is effectively a dynastic title standing for the Smith line, why is the final authoritative voice that of Mormon? Why does Joseph stop writing primarily as “Nephi” and begin writing as “Mormon”?

I see it as a shift in authority—Joseph fully embracing the authority he has gained.

Nephi was gradually establishing his right to lead, from obtaining the record and separating from his brothers—by Helaman 9, people are even wondering if he is a god. His guile seems to have matured. Nephi somehow knows the chief judge has been murdered, knows who did it, and knows how to expose the murderer. The text explains it as revelation, but it can be seen as a perfection of Joseph’s use of guile. He goes from catching someone with clever questions to developing a story in which foreknowledge itself becomes the proof of his authority.

He has consolidated power over each of the competing factions, and transitioned into Mormon. As Mormon, he no longer needs to establish anything. He has the records, and decides what stays in and what is edited out. Mormon is Joseph after he has fully come into his own.

[Shulem]

If “Nephi” is effectively a dynastic title standing for the Smith line, why is the final authoritative voice that of Mormon? Why does Joseph stop writing primarily as “Nephi” and begin writing as “Mormon”?

As you know, following the first Nephi there was a concession of kings that continued bearing the dynastic name of Nephi until the judges were established. Nephi (son of Lehi) was essentially the chief prophet and founder of the promised land following his father's death. Later came Nephi, son of Helaman who was also a prophet and chief judge and finally Nephi son of Nephi who was one of the Twelve chosen by Jesus.

And here's the kicker which answers your question:

I am Mormon, and a pure descendant of Lehi.

And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon) I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me.

Nephi, Mormon, and Joseph Smith are one in the same person.

Isn't that right, Don Bradley?

You know damn well!

I see it as a shift in authority—Joseph fully embracing the authority he has gained.

Nephi was gradually establishing his right to lead, from obtaining the record and separating from his brothers—by Helaman 9, people are even wondering if he is a god. His guile seems to have matured. Nephi somehow knows the chief judge has been murdered, knows who did it, and knows how to expose the murderer. The text explains it as revelation, but it can be seen as a perfection of Joseph’s use of guile. He goes from catching someone with clever questions to developing a story in which foreknowledge itself becomes the proof of his authority.

He has consolidated power over each of the competing factions, and transitioned into Mormon. As Mormon, he no longer needs to establish anything. He has the records, and decides what stays in and what is edited out. Mormon is Joseph after he has fully come into his own.

Very well said, and spot on, Limnor. That was the vision.

Joseph Smith played the characters and finished with Mormon and used his imaginary son (Moroni) to finish the record and end the dynasty. Everything about the Book of Mormon is a faith promoting story -- pure fiction created out of the mind of Joseph Smith.

[Limnor]

He has consolidated power over each of the competing factions, and transitioned into Mormon. As Mormon, he no longer needs to establish anything. He has the records, and decides what stays in and what is edited out. Mormon is Joseph after he has fully come into his own.

Very well said, and spot on, Limnor. That was the vision.

You seem to agree that there were competing factions—so if Mormon represents Joseph after consolidating authority, who do you think the rival factions were in the real world?

More specifically, do you think Moroni and Ammoron are additional representations of Joseph’s internal self, or could they represent real world people? The war between them feels so important that I’ve speculated that it reflects a real world political struggle Joseph was working through, rather than creating—or simply plagiarizing—a military narrative.

Reading the story symbolically, the Moroni/Amalickiah/Ammoron episodes become very interesting because it isn’t just military conflict—it’s also a competition for power, for authority and claim to rule.

[Shulem]

You seem to agree that there were competing factions—so if Mormon represents Joseph...

In my mind there is no if about it, the 11-15-24 numeric combination is a sure sign that Smith fixed the text to match his own life and allow him space to play out his fantasies according to his own wild desires. It basically comes to down to one thing which is: Everything is about Joseph Smith, front, center, and rear. Yes, his father (Lehi) is important and is the grand introduction to the main character (Nephi) and of course several siblings are thrown into the story as well as his poor mother, Sariah (Lucy Mack) who was never afforded a decent burial in the reworked text. You'll also note that Nephi's wife (Emma) is not explicitly named nor are the names of any of their children. Everything evolves around the selfish and self-centered nature of Joseph Smith playing various roles in the book. His family was a mere sidenote and was kept hidden lest anyone discover them in the story and figure out the whole f-ing riddle.

Now, shift gears and I will help you understand the nature of the game as I AM understand it. Are you ready?

Think in terms of Donald J. Trump. That is Joseph Smith!

Ding, ding, ding!

...after consolidating authority, who do you think the rival factions were in the real world?

Assigning real world connections to Smith's fantasies is somewhat muddy and a bit mirky. Things of that nature are not crystal clear. The Book of Mormon was ruled by Kings and Judges but Joseph Smith's world was run by a democracy having three branches of government in which no kings would ever rule. There is no comparison.

More specifically, do you think Moroni and Ammoron are additional representations of Joseph’s internal self, or could they represent real world people? The war between them feels so important that I’ve speculated that it reflects a real world political struggle Joseph was working through, rather than creating—or simply plagiarizing—a military narrative.

Reading the story symbolically, the Moroni/Amalickiah/Ammoron episodes become very interesting because it isn’t just military conflict—it’s also a competition for power, for authority and claim to rule.

As I said in the last post, everything is about Joseph Smith. The whole world revolved around him. He likened himself to that of Joseph of Egypt and would become the new Joseph to save America from spiritual famine.

[Limnor]

You seem to agree that there were competing factions—so if Mormon represents Joseph...

In my mind there is no if about it, the 11-15-24 numeric combination is a sure sign that Smith fixed the text to match his own life and allow him space to play out his fantasies according to his own wild desires. It basically comes to down to one thing which is: Everything is about Joseph Smith, front, center, and rear. Yes, his father (Lehi) is important and is the grand introduction to the main character (Nephi) and of course several siblings are thrown into the story as well as his poor mother, Sariah (Lucy Mack) who was never afforded a decent burial in the reworked text. You'll also note that Nephi's wife (Emma) is not explicitly named nor are the names of any of their children. Everything evolves around the selfish and self-centered nature of Joseph Smith playing various roles in the book. His family was a mere sidenote and was kept hidden lest anyone discover them in the story and figure out the whole f-ing riddle.

Now, shift gears and I will help you understand the nature of the game as I AM understand it. Are you ready?

Think in terms of Donald J. Trump. That is Joseph Smith!

Ding, ding, ding!

I very much agree Joseph is Mormon.

The encoding does get murky but it’s the only thing that interests me about the book.

I think the daughter of Jared represents Emma, as does the queen wife of King Lamoni.

[Shulem]

I think the daughter of Jared represents Emma

Which Jared in the Book of Mormon do you refer to? The founder (Jared) of the Jaredites had 12 children, four of which were sons (Jacom, Gilgah, Mahah, and Orihah) and presumably the rest were daughters but the names were not listed. The other Jared was the son of King Omer who had an exotic dancing daughter.

[Limnor]

The Jared identified Ether chapter 8.

I see it like this: Jacom, Gilgah, Mahan, and Orihah are the same set of four “sons” named throughout the book. They were followers or converts, “sons” of Joseph. And the female follower, or daughter, in Heth/Harmony, is Emma.

Ether 8:2 And Jared rebelled against his father, and came and dwelt in the land of Heth. And it came to pass that he did flatter many people, because of his cunning words, until he had gained the half of the kingdom.

Ether 8:7 And now Jared became exceedingly sorrowful because of the loss of the kingdom, for he had set his heart upon the kingdom and upon the glory of the world.

8 Now the daughter of Jared being exceedingly expert, and seeing the sorrows of her father, thought to devise a plan whereby she could redeem the kingdom unto her father.

9 Now the daughter of Jared was exceedingly fair. And it came to pass that she did talk with her father, and said unto him: Whereby hath my father so much sorrow? Hath he not read the record which our fathers brought across the great deep? Behold, is there not an accountconcerning them of old, that they by their secret plans did obtain kingdoms and great glory?

10 And now, therefore, let my father send for Akish, the son of Kimnor; and behold, I am fair, and I will dance before him, and I will please him, that he will desire me to wife; wherefore if he shall desire of thee that ye shall give unto him me to wife, then shall ye say: I will give her if ye will bring unto me the head of my father, the king.

Ether 8:17 And it was the daughter of Jared who put it into his heart to search up these things of old; and Jared put it into the heart of Akish; wherefore, Akish administered it unto his kindred and friends, leading them away by fair promises to do whatsoever thing he desired.

Not particularly flattering.

[Shulem]

The Jared identified Ether chapter 8.

I see it like this: Jacom, Gilgah, Mahan, and Orihah

It's Mahah.

<snip>

Not particularly flattering.

Right. I can hardly imagine Joseph secreting the woman he just married in that manner within the context of his book.

I just can't do that. It doesn't work for me.

See Matthew 14 (daughter of Herodias) for Smith's inspiration on this matter. The Bible is the key.