Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!

[Shulem]

You are spot on with the Greek misdirection.

If Smith had paid greater attention to Acts 16:1 he would have realized it was a Greek name that has no place or time in his Book of Mormon story:

Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:

Mormon apologists (court jesters) dance and work around the anachronism by trying to justify how a Greek name was translated from the gold plates but are blissfully unaware that Smith said there was no Greek on the plates, period. And if there was no Greek on the plates then there can't be Greek names either and that would include Timothy and Lachoneus.

Imagine confronting the prophet in Nauvoo and telling him, in front of others, that Timothy is a Greek name and that there is no pharaonic king's name in the writing of Facsimile No. 3 and that he doesn't know what he's talking about! The prophet would have accused his detractor of possessing the spirit of Satan.

Mormon apologists are like rotten kids that refuse to grow up!

[Shulem]

What if the name Mormon already existed in the lost 116 pages? That seems like an interesting little composition seam.

Please listen to me.

I'm of the opinion that Joseph Smith had already formulated the name Mormon long before he ever dictated a single word to Martin Harris or Oliver Cowdery. The character of Mormon was a preconceived imaginary hero in young Joseph's 17 year-old mind in which he would one day play that role in a future book he hoped to produce. Young Joseph had a four-year period to invent and prepare stories for his book. He contemplated the names of people, places, and things years before he ever sat down to dictate. Critics are quick to point out that he garnered things from his local environment to include names but nobody seems to understand how the name Mormon was a name he undoubtedly repeated often while telling imaginary stories to his family as a lad. His mother said, "he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their mode of warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them."

I'm confident the name Mormon was utilized long before Joseph ever claimed to get the plates. The Mosiah Priority does not take this very important point into consideration because the very name Mormon preceded all the accounts in question. Smith formerly stated he learned the name "Moroni" on the occasion when the angel first appeared to him. He had four more years to work out all manner of names, places, and things for his book. He also had to determine where the geography would take place and keep it a secret lest anyone search for ruins. He selected Delmarva on a map and used that to assist him in narrating the geography.

Now, based on the Mosiah Priority, I find it ironic that Mormon gets the last word (Words of Mormon) which means the most important character in the whole book (Joseph Smith) finished the book at that point. That is ironic! It's simply a case and matter of Joseph Smith getting the last word over his detractors and the loss of the 116 page lost manuscript.

Smith was laughing all the way to the print shop. The joke is on everyone who believes his story!



Fools!

[Limnor]

I'm confident the name Mormon was utilized long before Joseph ever claimed to get the plates. The Mosiah Priority does not take this very important point into consideration because the very name Mormon preceded all the accounts in question. Smith formerly stated he learned the name "Moroni" on the occasion when the angel first appeared to him. He had four more years to work out all manner of names, places, and things for his book. He also had to determine where the geography would take place and keep it a secret lest anyone search for ruins. He selected Delmarva on a map and used that to assist him in narrating the geography.

You said “please listen to me” at the beginning of your post, and I’m finding myself wondering why you would say that, because I don’t think I’m ignoring your model. I understand that your model places Mormon, the geography, and much of the story back into Joseph’s pre-1827 years. And I agree with much of it.

What I’m not seeing is why those possibilities should be treated as established facts. Lucy doesn’t say he was already using the name Mormon or had Delmarva mapped out. That’s really where I’m hung up. I don’t think the Delmarva model captures the implications of all the evidence. Even if Delmarva explains some of the geography, I think we should look at all of the compositional evidence to form a more comprehensive assessment. Mosiah priority, seams in the story, theological ideas that were in existence prior to the Book of Mormon that Joseph never mentioned, and even what appear to be inserted records are the things that I think expand the compositional theories.

Those things make me wonder whether the book was developing during composition in ways that Delmarva doesn’t address. I just don’t see how it explains the whole scene, and I’m hesitant to let one hypothesis minimize evidence that may be pointing in several different directions.

I’d prefer not to argue about it, because I don’t see much in terms of resolution, considering we may never know the entire truth of composition.

[Shulem]

You said “please listen to me” at the beginning of your post, and I’m finding myself wondering why you would say that, because I don’t think I’m ignoring your model. I understand that your model places Mormon, the geography, and much of the story back into Joseph’s pre-1827 years. And I agree with much of it.

That's good.

What I’m not seeing is why those possibilities should be treated as established facts. Lucy doesn’t say he was already using the name Mormon or had Delmarva mapped out. That’s really where I’m hung up.

Nor did Lucy cite the name "Moroni" in her autobiography when describing the happenstance of the angel in great detail. Moroni's name is NOT mentioned by Lucy as a name revealed to her son prior to acquiring the plates. But Joseph testified in writing how the name Moroni was pre-known to him when the angel first appeared in September of 1823. Mother Smith just doesn't name the angel. Simple as that. And I don't think she knew anything about Delmarva which was Joseph's best kept secret.

I think the Mosiah Priority offers a keen look at how the Book of Mormon unfolded in the way it did.

Now, when considering Lucy's statement about how her young son told stories it seems quite reasonable that he also included names (personal pronouns) in telling those fantastic stories. Every story has characters and characters have names!

• "he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent" People have names!

• "animals upon which they rode" Animals have names too!

• "their cities" Cities have names!

• "with every particular" DETAILS!

• "religious worship" We get that also in the Book of Mormon!

• "as if he had spent his whole life with them" Then he must have known some names! How about Mormon?