A tribute to Grindael

[drumdude]

I really hope this conversation does not get moved. It belongs right here in the Terrestrial Forum.

The complicit consent by the posters in this forum for the bigotry and harassment by Doc Cam deserves an answer. The folks up here, specifically Dr. Shades, Kerry, Simon, Kishkumen, Gadianton and others need to stand for something here. They can let it slide with a wink, wink, nod, nod. They can endorse it. They can reject it.

I will consider silent consent by silent submission to be an emphatic endorsement of harassment, posting of 4Chan material and bigotry.

Can you and Lem post examples? As we’ve already said most of us here aren’t in on the inside baseball drama going on down there. He said she said won’t go far here, I think.

[Lem]

This does seem a bit like brigading. Also, Dr. Peterson used to be a poster here ages ago and suffered a similar heckling which continues to this day. Should we not be allowed to continue discussing Dr. Peterson’s professional failings either?

That's a good point. Recently there was a discussion about how Peterson's personal attributes shouldn't be used in a discussion (weight, etc.) I absolutely agree with that, but on the other hand, many here have discussed Peterson's work and output, which I think is fair game and is not at all similar to the heckling I am talking about. For example, I documented many of his cases of plagiarism, which being a fellow professor I found particularly odious.

The person who trolled grindael did not engage his work, except only superficially, and ONLY as a vehicle to make inappropriate remarks. His trolling was a constant spamming of the threads, disrupting the talk away from any substantive discussion, and a repetition of personal attacks, similar to the two trolls currently here. Many very interesting discussions on grin's research just disappeared under the weight of the constant onslaught, which was our loss.

[Lem]

We did not hear from our friend Grindael during the last year of his life because of trolling on this board. There are ways to maintain free speech without letting trolls destroy a community, but without moderation all we can do is ignore the trolls.

I hate to sound like I'm speaking ill of Grindael, but that dude he had such a problem with was as harmless and as inept as a roly-poly bug. I don't find blaming a troll all that helpful. I'd have no idea on what basis Shades should have stepped in.

Many may see it that way, but we weren't followed around for close to a decade, having every comment disparaged and having virtually every single conversation one is in reduced to shambles by the same troll. Day after day, year after year. I really need to find Grin's last statement. He was pretty eloquent about how that constant feeling of harassment just got to be too, too much.

[Atlanticmike]

I hate to sound like I'm speaking ill of Grindael, but that dude he had such a problem with was as harmless and as inept as a roly-poly bug. I don't find blaming a troll all that helpful. I'd have no idea on what basis Shades should have stepped in.

Many may see it that way, but we weren't followed around for close to a decade, having every comment disparaged and having virtually every single conversation one is in reduced to shambles by the same troll. Day after day, year after year. I really need to find Grin's last statement. He was pretty eloquent about how that constant feeling of harassment just got to be too, too much.

What's your infatuation with calling people trolls. Before cultellus and I came along you would constantly call subgenius and Ajax18 trolls! Personally I think you call someone a troll if they don't align with your beliefs. For you it's a go to move to try to shut someone up.

[drumdude]

how that constant feeling of harassment just got to be too, too much.

Daniel Peterson said that about us. John Dehlin said that about us (rosebud). We don't have John Gee here. We're poorer for not having them here, but I don't think we should have to adjust our criticisms of them to accommodate not offending them.

Well Mental Asshole now has FIVE Troll threads ... because I'm not going to have his stupid, inane comment that has nothing to do with Joseph's Spiritual Wifeism on MY thread. Keep it up, Asshole, you only show you're the consummate TROLL and LIAR.

It seems like he was perfectly capable of defending himself. And outsiders can judge for themselves what is trolling or not. I don't believe anyone's opinion of Grindael was changed by all the trolling, he is still very very well respected here.

[drumdude]

This thread has a lot of the squabble with MG, Lem, and Grin.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 2&start=84

I just don't see why these personal squabbles need to be brought up here.

[Lem]

how that constant feeling of harassment just got to be too, too much.

Daniel Peterson said that about us. John Dehlin said that about us (rosebud). We don't have John Gee here. We're poorer for not having them here, but I don't think we should have to adjust our criticisms of them to accommodate not offending them.

True, but in this thread I'm addressing trolling with the intent to disrupt, which is not the same as criticizing.

Well Mental Asshole now has FIVE Troll threads ... because I'm not going to have his stupid, inane comment that has nothing to do with Joseph's Spiritual Wifeism on MY thread. Keep it up, Asshole, you only show you're the consummate TROLL and LIAR.

It seems like he was perfectly capable of defending himself. And outsiders can judge for themselves what is trolling or not. I don't believe anyone's opinion of Grindael was changed by all the trolling, he is still very very well respected here.

Yes, he alternated between ignoring and fighting back. He also asked for mod help in moving derailings and removing personal attacks. Sometimes he got the help, sometimes he didn't. That's the tricky thing about trolling, it's difficult to look at single posts and see the intent to disrupt, but eventually the pattern is clear. Allowing a clear intent to disrupt is not conducive to building a community.

[Grindael] is still very very well respected here

Absolutely.

[ceeboo]

Lem

How's your "Tribute to Grindael" thread going so far?

Should you have brought this trolling discussion to this forum? Sure. People in this community can decide If they want to partake and/or if they are interested in reading about this issue. Just like any other thread, they will engage if they want or they will not engage if they choose not to.

But the thread title you chose - do you think there might be some wisdom in changing it, like immediately?

[Lem]

This thread has a lot of the squabble with MG, Lem, and Grin.

http://mormondiscussions.com/viewtopic. ... 2&start=84

I just don't see why these personal squabbles need to be brought up here.

Because this is a thread about how trolling with the intent to disrupt caused the loss of a great contributor. I am making that point now, and I made the same point then. From your link:

Really, though, what is his point? [Mentalgymnast] harped on and on, destroying 5 threads last night, copying grindael's work with slightly different emphasis once or twice, but not the same difference each time, just seemingly random changes. One time mental changed the font just because the words were, as he put it, "near" grindael's original emphases. He never once, however, actually made a point as to what his actual issue was, or what different hypothesis he had about the writings. He actually didn't even express any opinion at all about the quotes, the writings, or grindael's hypothesis. He just trolled.

[drumdude]

Is there any call to action, like banning the trolls? I can understand venting but it seems the implication for discussing it here is to change something and debate if that change is warranted or not.