Vaccines and Therapeutics 2.0 & 3.0 Merge

[canpakes]

The closer we get to the facts, the closer we get to a solution.

Indeed. Vaccination seems to be keeping more people alive than not vaccinating.

The article speaks to that conclusion and solution.

[Res Ipsa]

Evidence that there is other evidence.

About half of all Covid-19 patients in hospital and in intensive care are fully vaccinated against the disease, new figures show.

One-sixth of deaths of people with the virus since April have been categorised as breakthrough infections of fully vaccinated patients, according to Health Service Executive data.

More than one-quarter of ICU admissions since July were also breakthrough infections of fully vaccinated people.

The proportion of vaccinated people requiring treatment in hospital has been increasing over recent months, as the number of vaccinated people in the wider population has risen.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/ ... -1.4670229

The closer we get to the facts, the closer we get to a solution.

Yes, in Ireland. I wonder what in Ireland is different than in the US:

About 90 per cent of the adult population has received a full course of vaccination, either two doses or one. People are considered fully vaccinated one week after their second dose of Pfizer vaccine, or two weeks after receiving any of the other three authorised vaccines.

I wonder why you left that out of your quotes? What is the percentage in the states that are experiencing overruns?

Gee, if 100% of adults were vaccinated, 100% of hospitalized patients would be vaccinated….

No one is saying that the vaccines are 100% effective. And some vaccinated people will die. But the evidence is that that the hospitals in the US are overwhelmingly overrun by unvaccinated people. Your “other evidence” from Ireland doesn’t contradict that in the slightest.

[Res Ipsa]

Interesting new poll by Pew. When broken down by religious identification:

Atheists: 90% vaccinated (highest rate)

White evangelicals: 57% vaccinated (lowest rate)

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/202 ... -appendix/

[Chap]

<about half of hospitalised COVID sufferers in Ireland have been vaccinated>

The closer we get to the facts, the closer we get to a solution.

Yes, in Ireland. I wonder what in Ireland is different than in the US:

About 90 per cent of the adult population has received a full course of vaccination, either two doses or one. People are considered fully vaccinated one week after their second dose of Pfizer vaccine, or two weeks after receiving any of the other three authorised vaccines.

I wonder why you left that out of your quotes? What is the percentage in the states that are experiencing overruns?

Gee, if 100% of adults were vaccinated, 100% of hospitalized patients would be vaccinated….

No one is saying that the vaccines are 100% effective. And some vaccinated people will die. But the evidence is that that the hospitals in the US are overwhelmingly overrun by unvaccinated people. Your “other evidence” from Ireland doesn’t contradict that in the slightest.

We've had this with Cultellus before, and it is clearly deliberate. This last time he did this, his topic was (if I recall correctly) a US university hospital, serving an academic community with a very high vaccination rate. Unsurprisingly, the COVID patient group in that hospital had a major proportion of vaccinated people. That high vaccination rate point was not mentioned until others called attention to it.

If there is a point here, it is that there is no vaccine that gives 100% protection against infection. Surprise! Of course, a non-administered vaccine gives precisely 0% protection. Hard choice, eh?

[Res Ipsa]

We've had this with Cultellus before, and it is clearly deliberate. This last time he did this, his topic was (if I recall correctly) a US university hospital, serving an academic community with a very high vaccination rate. Unsurprisingly, the COVID patient group in that hospital had a major proportion of vaccinated people. That high vaccination rate point was not mentioned until others called attention to it.

If there is a point here, it is that there is no vaccine that gives 100% protection against infection. Surprise! Of course, a non-administered vaccine gives precisely 0% protection. Hard choice, eh?

What is "this"? There seems to be a lot of confusion in your assumed facts here. Another point here is that no vaccine gives immunity, even though, up until a few days ago the CDC defined vaccination as a means of providing immunity, where now, it is only protection. And now, not as protection against the strains that seem to be running rampant.

The conversation that has been happening now was based on an article that had a narrative by Jen the Nurse and pictures of some very unprofessional practices in an ICU. Practices that, if they were to happen in many hospitals (generally speaking) and in hospitals where I work (specifically speaking) people would be terminated immediately. In addition to terminations, there would likely be a report to the state that would trigger an investigation by accreditation and safety agencies. Clearly, there were some bizarre items in the article, including the absurd description of wearing an N95 mask over a surgical mask in some emergency crisis in the ICU. These inaccuracies or imaginary claims in the article should lead to questions of the validity and integrity of the article. The inaccuracies and imaginary claims also diminish the use of the article for making broad conclusions about the country and about ICUs across the country, which is what happened in the second sentence of the post that had the article.

Every cliché excuse has been used to defend the article and the conclusion made by Res, and that is fine and good. That does not change the fact that the article was problematic. I have no issues with this discussion. I would bet some money that at least one person that has participated in this conversation understands better now, after this discussion, what is the difference between PAPRs and N95s, for example. One can see from this conversation that safety is a factor in the ICU and that proper masking in an ICU is critical. One can also see that making broad conclusions based on an errant article is silliness - though we are still not in agreement on that, which is also fine.

Actually, what one can see is how easy it is for a motivated thinker to close his eyes to evidence. Cultellus has not shown that the hospital in question is engaging in unsafe practices. He simply made up the fact that an aerosol spreading procedure is occurring in a still photograph that doesn’t purport to show a procedure. He made up the fact that a door was propped open. In another, he simply made up what a group of medical staff was doing even though he couldn’t see what was on the screens of the computers they were working on. From his dubious interpretation of two photographs, he then claims that the unsafe practices he thinks he sees in a photo is responsible for the conditions in more hospitals (based on no evidence) and concludes that the unsafe practices he imagines based on a single photo are “the question,” and not hospitals across the country being overrun with unvaccinated COVID patients. And when he demands evidence, it’s presented to him and he ignores it. Instead he responds with an article from Ireland that doesn’t support his position at all.

Spreading this kind of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) is causing unnecessary death and suffering. Ordinary folks who aren’t anti-vaccine are putting off getting vaccinated because they hear FUD from friends, relatives and co-workers. And that delay is, for some, fatal.

[canpakes]

What is "this"? There seems to be a lot of confusion in your assumed facts here. Another point here is that no vaccine gives immunity, even though, up until a few days ago the CDC defined vaccination as a means of providing immunity, where now, it is only protection. And now, not as protection against the strains that seem to be running rampant.

It would help you to understand what is meant by immunity with regard to vaccines, and that COVID vaccines were never promised by the CDC, or anyone else, to protect 100% of the population from ever being infected.

https://www.immune.org.nz/vaccines/effi ... ectiveness

This is also why you never talk about the outcomes of those who’ve received the vaccine, as a group, versus those who have not.

[canpakes]

This is also why you never talk about the outcomes of those who’ve received the vaccine, as a group, versus those who have not.

You are a liar.

How is the vaccinated group faring, as compared to the unvaccinated group, with regard to deaths?

[canpakes]

Another point here is that no vaccine gives immunity, even though, up until a few days ago the CDC defined vaccination as a means of providing immunity, where now, it is only protection.

Are you implying that the CDC was suggesting 100% protection with either wording?

[Res Ipsa]

Interesting new poll by Pew. When broken down by religious identification:

Atheists: 90% vaccinated (highest rate)

White evangelicals: 57% vaccinated (lowest rate)

https://www.pewresearch.org/science/202 ... -appendix/

Oh my god. Well. I change my mind. I did not realize there was a Pew poll about atheists and evangelicals and vaccination. Maybe I will go ahead and delete all my previous posts, again. Now that there is a Pew poll, should we lock this thread and have little pannycakes move all the posts that Jersey does not like to Prison?

Here we see Cultellus hysterically overreact to a piece of data he doesn’t like, trying to change the subject to moderating. The point of the article is to show that, unlike Ireland, there is a huge reservoir of Americans who refuse to be vaccinated. Berceuse we don’t have infinite ICU beds and staff, that pool of unvaccinated persons is more than sufficient to overrun our health care systems.

[canpakes]

How is the vaccinated group faring, as compared to the unvaccinated group, with regard to deaths?

Are you asking a question, or providing an original thought, ever? I know what you are doing here, but I am curious about the future.

How is the vaccinated group faring, as compared to the unvaccinated group, with regard to deaths?