In light of the massacre in Virginia....

[_Fortigurn]

This guy was an aberration. This entire occurance was a freak incident. A horrible, tragic, freak incident. No one is to blame except for this individual who refused to make friends or find love despite repeated attempts by those around him. This guy had roomates who tried to be friendly and talk to him, and he refused. He had parents and siblings and teachers that he refused to draw close to, he was sick and twisted and no one could do anything to help him.

He isn't an aberration. He's a predictable element of a given society. I can make a prediction right now, without any fear of contradiction, that if that society remains as it is (or progresses along the same lines), then someone else will do the same. I can make that prediction utterly without fear of contradiction because it has been proved that this particular society produces this particular kind of person. There are societies on this planet which have never, ever, experienced this kind of person, even though some of these societies are thousands of years old, and that particular society is less than 100 years old.

[_beastie]

He was severely mentally ill. He needed medical intervention, and it should have been involuntary, given the extreme concern of so many around him and the judgment of the court.

Fort, I agree with you on many points, but this sort of mental illness is likely completely biological in origin. Yes, its expression is dependent on environmental triggers, so living in an urban, faceless, violence-soaked environment pushed him in this direction, while in a more tribal environment there may have been a different expression. I suspect it would still have been violent, but not the massacre that the guns allowed. However, I seriously doubt that biologically originated mental illnesses didn't exist in the tribal environment. It's a genetic flaw. It existed, and given the predictable nature of the expression of certain mental illness, its expression in the tribal environment was probably not alien to this expression.

I maintain that the greatest flaw this incident revealed was the weakness within the US health system.

Regarding gun control, I really don't know what to think, but it does give me pause that so many other countries seem to agree that the US system in that regard is a problem that contributed to this incident. The US has a tendency to be egocentric and refuse to listen to other countries. We should know better by now. We should start listening.

[_Mercury]

It's unreal.

I'm just waiting for some evangelist to come along and claim god was pissed off at VT for some reason. He should be along soon.

Too late, Fox News was asking their viewers if the bastard was posessed by Satan.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

He was severely mentally ill. He needed medical intervention, and it should have been involuntary, given the extreme concern of so many around him and the judgment of the court.

Fort, I agree with you on many points, but this sort of mental illness is likely completely biological in origin. Yes, its expression is dependent on environmental triggers, so living in an urban, faceless, violence-soaked environment pushed him in this direction, while in a more tribal environment there may have been a different expression. I suspect it would still have been violent, but not the massacre that the guns allowed. However, I seriously doubt that biologically originated mental illnesses didn't exist in the tribal environment. It's a genetic flaw. It existed, and given the predictable nature of the expression of certain mental illness, its expression in the tribal environment was probably not alien to this expression.

I maintain that the greatest flaw this incident revealed was the weakness within the US health system.

Is there any information as to whether or not he was a diagnosed psychotic? Also, any information about his childhood? Early abuse?

Jersey Girl

[_Fortigurn]

He was severely mentally ill. He needed medical intervention, and it should have been involuntary, given the extreme concern of so many around him and the judgment of the court.

Isn't our modern society great? All this knowledge being wasted.

Fort, I agree with you on many points, but this sort of mental illness is likely completely biological in origin. Yes, its expression is dependent on environmental triggers, so living in an urban, faceless, violence-soaked environment pushed him in this direction, while in a more tribal environment there may have been a different expression. I suspect it would still have been violent, but not the massacre that the guns allowed. However, I seriously doubt that biologically originated mental illnesses didn't exist in the tribal environment. It's a genetic flaw. It existed, and given the predictable nature of the expression of certain mental illness, its expression in the tribal environment was probably not alien to this expression.

I don't believe that either you or I can sit here and evaluate to what extent his final pathology was biological or environmental in origin. I'm entirely prepared to accept a biological predisposition, but that predisposition was manifestly exacerbated by his environment. He was a product of his environment. A different environment would have diffused or disarmed his initial pathological tendency.

Yes guns enable large scale group killings, but serial killers don't need guns. Jack the Ripper managed a horrific record of killings using only a knife. Serial killers are not an ancient phenomenon. They are a modern phenomenon. They are manufactured by society, carefully groomed and nurtured to flashpoint, and then helpfully equipped with the tools they need to get out there and kill on a large scale.

If serial killers were simply a biological aberration which occur once every X number of births, then this would be revealed by a certain distribution pattern within societies in human history. But the fact is that we have societies which have existed for thousands of years and which have never experienced serial killers, whilst we have societies which have existed for less than 150 years and have experienced almost all the serial killers in recorded human history. There can be no doubt that certain societies will always experience serial killers, whilst certain societies never will.

I maintain that the greatest flaw this incident revealed was the weakness within the US health system.

I believe that's a serious flaw, but not the most important flaw. That this pathology was developed by the society is a far more serious flaw.

Regarding gun control, I really don't know what to think, but it does give me pause that so many other countries seem to agree that the US system in that regard is a problem that contributed to this incident. The US has a tendency to be egocentric and refuse to listen to other countries. We should know better by now. We should start listening.

Good points.

[_beastie]

I believe that's a serious flaw, but not the most important flaw. That this pathology was developed by the society is a far more serious flaw.

Maybe. Perhaps I should say that it is the revealed flaw that we can actually do something about.

I do believe that our technology has placed us in settings we are not currently well adapted for. But I do not think that we can turn back the hands of time.

[_Fortigurn]

I believe that's a serious flaw, but not the most important flaw. That this pathology was developed by the society is a far more serious flaw.

Maybe. Perhaps I should say that it is the revealed flaw that we can actually do something about.

We could do something about the other issue.

I do believe that our technology has placed us in settings we are not currently well adapted for. But I do not think that we can turn back the hands of time.

We could, but we don't want to. These people and their victims are dismissed as a price society is willing to pay for a certain standard of living. We're happy playing Russian Roulette as long as we get our MTV.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, I have to disagree. We cannot keep simply dismissing these people as 'lone nuts'. We have to face the fact that certain societies regularly produce these people, whereas other societies do not. There have been murderers and psychos since man has walked the earth, but they are a lot more common in some areas than in others. Serial killers as we know them are a modern urban phenomenon ich is less than 150 years old. Believe it or not, there are countries on this planet in which no child has to go to a school with metal detectors and armed security guards. Any society which has reached that stage is seriously sick.

First, in this country the places where kids go to school with metal detectors and security guards are few. However, I agree that society and our culture my foster the opportunites for such violence to a certian extent, but they blame still lies at the feet of he who pulled the trigger. Choices are involved. There are lots of ways for such a troubled soul to find help.

[_Fortigurn]

First, in this country the places where kids go to school with metal detectors and security guards are few.

I'm aware of that. But there shouldn't be any at all. Not even one. Not a single one. Not any. What do you do when the number rises to a few hundred? Say 'Well, it could be worse, could be a few thousand'? Or try and address the underlying causes?

However, I agree that society and our culture my foster the opportunites for such violence to a certian extent, but they blame still lies at the feet of he who pulled the trigger. Choices are involved. There are lots of ways for such a troubled soul to find help.

I am not exculpating him in any way from his responsibility for his personal actions. But I am pointing out that he received a certain conditioning from his environment for which other people are culpable, and that his actions are derived from that conditioning.

[_beastie]

Is there any information as to whether or not he was a diagnosed psychotic? Also, any information about his childhood? Early abuse?

So far there is no definitive information as far as an actual diagnosis or early history.