Michael Ash - Shaken Faith Syndrome

[_Corpsegrinder]

As for the bait and switch tactics I am not so sure that is all that accurate. It also can be viewed as progressive learning. Like when we all learned what an atom was in high school. Then we went to college (chemistry) and found out it was not that way. Then later in studying physics we find that both of those are wrong and it has dual properties in the parts and is way more complex than we could have imagined. So I am not so sure that the intent is there. Now I do know that some who teach are incompetent. But that is a different issue. The weakness of the flesh is everywhere.

Offering an impromptu lecture on eternal marriage in answer to an investigator’s question about Joseph Smith’s tryst with Fanny Alger is not “progressive learning”.

It’s damage control.

It’s also rather patronizing to the investigator who asked the question in the first place.

[_Franktalk]

Offering an impromptu lecture on eternal marriage in answer to an investigator’s question about Joseph Smith’s tryst with Fanny Alger is not “progressive learning”.

It’s damage control.

It’s also rather patronizing to the investigator who asked the question in the first place.

Not having a complete understanding of this subject I can not give an opinion. If I waited for people to tell me how things worked with doctrine I would be all kinds of messed up. I can think of two or three people out of hundreds that really do understand scripture. But this is normal in any church. Issac Newton stated that people should read the Bible and form their own ideas and have their own relationship with God. Brigham Young basically said the same thing. I agree with both of them.

[_Corpsegrinder]

If I waited for people to tell me how things worked with doctrine I would be all kinds of messed up. I can think of two or three people out of hundreds that really do understand scripture. But this is normal in any church. Issac Newton stated that people should read the Bible and form their own ideas and have their own relationship with God. Brigham Young basically said the same thing. I agree with both of them.

Yes, I would agree. In fact, thanks for bringing up Isaac Newton because I find his conception of God (assuming He/She/It/They exist(s)) both compelling and interesting.

In terms of dealing with damaging information, I think the Church would do well to follow Lanny Davis’ advice: “Tell it soon. Tell it all. And tell it yourself.”

[_jo1952]

Less is more.

I'll get straight to the point. I cannot agree with you on this.

Love,

jo

“Less is more” is one of several unifying principles in the philosophy of aesthetics. Refer here: Mies van der Rohe.

To All:

Is Corpse the only one who misunderstood my comment?

Love,

jo

Edited for clarification: Is Corpse the only guy who misunderstood my comment?

[_kairos]

jo

i cannot believe that you ,because of what you have talked about here, can truthfully say that your relationship with the HS continues to affirm to you that the Book of Mormon is true,& that the LDS church is the one true church, even though you have caveated your claims about the fallibility of men insomuch as they try to conduct God's business on earth.
now why do i say that- first i will not deny you had a conversion experience of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon evern though you did not give lots of specifics on how that happened-in terms of context, environment, your emotional state, etc.
since that time some 37 years later, you hold on to that one experience even though you admit at least implicitly that there are "issues" , and since you are on this board, significant issues with the truth claims of the LDS religion. if your relationship with the HS is authentic, you would know by now that the LDS religion is not what you believed it to be when you received your answer concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
i am sure you haved heard this from your relatives/friends at Calvary chapel.
i would bet that have shown you that your belief in the LDS truth is false but you simply cannot accept it, because of that one experience 37 years ago and because you do not want it to be otherwise. i would surmise your relationship with the HS is not as solid /authentic as you have expressed it to be.
i am sure you are a good person but cognitive dissonance has you with your hands over your ears.

[_jo1952]

jo

i cannot believe that you ,because of what you have talked about here, can truthfully say that your relationship with the HS continues to affirm to you that the Book of Mormon is true,& that the LDS church is the one true church, even though you have caveated your claims about the fallibility of men insomuch as they try to conduct God's business on earth.
now why do i say that- first i will not deny you had a conversion experience of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon evern though you did not give lots of specifics on how that happened-in terms of context, environment, your emotional state, etc.
since that time some 37 years later, you hold on to that one experience even though you admit at least implicitly that there are "issues" , and since you are on this board, significant issues with the truth claims of the LDS religion. if your relationship with the HS is authentic, you would know by now that the LDS religion is not what you believed it to be when you received your answer concerning the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
i am sure you haved heard this from your relatives/friends at Calvary chapel.
i would bet that have shown you that your belief in the LDS truth is false but you simply cannot accept it, because of that one experience 37 years ago and because you do not want it to be otherwise. i would surmise your relationship with the HS is not as solid /authentic as you have expressed it to be.
i am sure you are a good person but cognitive dissonance has you with your hands over your ears.

Hi Kairo!

I don't think we have had the chance to converse with one another. It is nice to meet you!

It appears that you have added some of your own preconceptions to my words, as I see many things in your comments which you attribute to me which I have not said; nor even believe. However, I am aware of what your agenda is, and it is not worth haggling over. Therefore, I am going to move on to what I see is the core issue.

I have come to believe that many, many people are so connected with the physical aspect of their existence, that they are not yet able to recognize and/or relate to the spiritual realm. Or, the extent of their awareness limits how they relate to others who have experienced the Holy Ghost at a level different from theirs. Once our awareness is such that we are able to discern it easily, we will recognize when others are discerning the Holy Ghost as well.

Paul does a wonderful job of describing how the world cannot comprehend what is spiritual; and as a result, the world thinks that anyone trying to relate something spiritual seems foolish to them.

As far as the LDS Church goes, I do not believe the Church is perfect. It can't be perfect; it is being administered by man. Therefore, I don't expect perfection from it. I do, however, recognize good fruit when I see it. The Holy Ghost is very active within the Church members as can be seen from the tremendous love members have for their Heavenly Father, for their Savior, Jesus Christ, and for their faithful service to them. Likewise, they manifest great love toward all of mankind and can always be found serving them in whatever way they can. In their sincere efforts to keep the first and second greatest commandments, the active members of the Church are demonstrating that this particular religious institution is doing something right and good; and thus is obviously of God.

Do I believe that the Church is the only path provided by Father for man to achieve Exaltation? No. It is through Christ we are saved. It is by His word, which is the law, that we achieve Exaltation. The Church currently holds the keys to perform the ordinances (the mechanical steps by which God contracts and makes His promises with us), but it is the confirming sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise of any ordinance performed which allows us to enter into Exaltation. It is not the Church that exalts anyone.

Love,

jo

[_kairos]

jo

the LDS church is a "merit-reward" religion with merit hoops to jump through at every turn; it is a club for the worthy not a hospital for sinners; it is elitist, authoritarian, and decides by its rules and regulations who is in/out , worthy/not worthy.. btw- is TSM or yourself really worthy to receive the sacrament? the truthful answer is no!

now you have had a legitimate HS experience in which none of the above played any part- you got down on your knees and prayed as best you could whether the Book of Mormon was true- you received an answer that projected you on a path you probably did not expect. where you expected grace and freedom from your lutheran experience you found merit ladders to climb, challenges to be perfect, and initially you were probably good at being "worthy"- you were and perhaps are in what i call the first half of life- you have built a container that defines you and what you believe- you have defined yourself from an ego perspective- job, career, family, car, house, callings in church- these are all first half of life characteristics.

but there is a second half of life that you have tasted perhaps but not experienced- conversion/falling in love with Jesus, profound peace and joy at the deepest levels of your being, no concern for first half of life attitudes or charcteristics- in second half of life men and women there is no concern for ego driven activities or attitudes-it does not matter at all what career, for example , you have or how much $$ you make or what calling you have in church-only your personal relationship with Jesus and serving Him totally every moment of everyday matters- in that is total freedom given by the HS.
have i guessed correctly-you are in the first half of life but deeply long to be a second half of life person?

[_Drifting]

Could you explain how one discerns or recognizes the holy Ghost is communicating with them?

Hi Themis,

I'm not ignoring your question. I'm pondering my response to you.

Love,

jo

Here is Packers answer to that question.

Should an angel converse with you, neither you nor he would be confined to corporeal sight or sound in order to communicate. For there is that spiritual process described by the Prophet Joseph Smith by which pure intelligence can flow into our minds and by which we can know what we need to know without either the effort of study or the passage of time, because that is revelation (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 132). We talk about confining on little computer chips vast amounts of information; through the processes of revelation and through this language of the Spirit, tremendous amounts of inspiration and information can be given to us instantly.

The voice of the Spirit is described in the scriptures as being neither loud nor harsh, not a voice of thunder, neither a voice of great tumultuous noise, but rather as still and small, of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper, and it can pierce even the very soul and cause the heart to burn.

The Spirit does not get our attention by shouting. It never shakes us with a heavy hand. The Spirit whispers. It caresses so gently, indeed, that if we are preoccupied, we can’t feel it at all.

Occasionally, the Spirit will press just firmly enough or often enough for us to pay attention; but from my experience, most of the time, if we do not heed the gentle feeling, if we do not listen with those feelings, the Spirit will withdraw and wait until we come seeking and listening, in our manner and our expression.

I have learned that the very impressive and miraculous spiritual experiences come very infrequently. Something is amiss if they come too intensely and too frequently. The question then arises, from whence come these experiences? Remember that there is a counterfeit.

[_jo1952]

jo

the LDS church is a "merit-reward" religion with merit hoops to jump through at every turn; it is a club for the worthy not a hospital for sinners; it is elitist, authoritarian, and decides by its rules and regulations who is in/out , worthy/not worthy.. btw- is TSM or yourself really worthy to receive the sacrament? the truthful answer is no!

now you have had a legitimate HS experience in which none of the above played any part- you got down on your knees and prayed as best you could whether the Book of Mormon was true- you received an answer that projected you on a path you probably did not expect. where you expected grace and freedom from your lutheran experience you found merit ladders to climb, challenges to be perfect, and initially you were probably good at being "worthy"- you were and perhaps are in what i call the first half of life- you have built a container that defines you and what you believe- you have defined yourself from an ego perspective- job, career, family, car, house, callings in church- these are all first half of life characteristics.

but there is a second half of life that you have tasted perhaps but not experienced- conversion/falling in love with Jesus, profound peace and joy at the deepest levels of your being, no concern for first half of life attitudes or charcteristics- in second half of life men and women there is no concern for ego driven activities or attitudes-it does not matter at all what career, for example , you have or how much $$ you make or what calling you have in church-only your personal relationship with Jesus and serving Him totally every moment of everyday matters- in that is total freedom given by the HS.
have i guessed correctly-you are in the first half of life but deeply long to be a second half of life person?

Hi Kairo,

The processes of sanctification, justification, etc., are God's laws. The LDS Church did not make them up. Indeed, they are taught in the Bible but can only be discerned through spiritual eyes. If someone is reading the Bible without spiritual eyes, they will not find them there, nor understand how others do. That is when man thinks that someone who has a different interpretation than they do of scripture, is foolish. OTOH, those who do discern the Bible with Spiritual eyes do not consider those who cannot yet see those spiritual interpretations as being foolish. This is actually a good test to see where someone is at, as it provides a distinction due to the fact that some people are busy judging others, while others are happy to share their beliefs without judging the person who is judging them.

I do not know who TSM is. Repentance is required continually, because during the process of perfection we are out of alignment with God's will. The purpose of the Sacrament is to remember Christ and to renew our commitment and the promises we made to God when we were baptized. It has been provided because God knew we would not be able to keep those promises in our imperfect state. Are we perfect when we take the sacrament? No - as we are still in the process of becoming perfect. It is an incorrect thought on your part to believe that we think we must be perfect, or that we are perfect when we take the sacrament. We take the sacrament often because Jesus commanded us to do so. There is great wisdom in this commandment.

I continue to experience the Holy Ghost. It was not a one-time thing. Also, I wasn't looking for grace or freedom from my Lutheran experiences. That was merely a part of my journey, a stage of my personal progression. It had personally served its purpose for me, and joining the LDS Church became a new stage in which to progress. My experiencing of the Holy Ghost has continued to be more and more profound as more and more Truth is revealed to me. We all progress at our own speed along the path of our personal journey. It is the physical part of our being that first goes through the major attachments to our world - this is as it is supposed to be. When our spirit is awakened, we begin to see things differently and through spiritual eyes. Anything spiritual can only be discerned spiritually even though the spiritual realm is co-existing with the physical---the physical world is existing within the spiritual realm. Truth, itself, can only be discerned spiritually. Until we our spirit awakens, however, we will be blind to all of this.

I don't think it is possible to make a clear distinction between only two parts of our spiritual awareness; i.e., a first half of our life and a second half of our life, because our spiritual understanding is a continual progression. However, I do understand your categorization of our spiritual awareness as a first half and a second half of our life. In accordance with your definition, I am in the second half of my life. In fact, at this point, my spiritual understanding seems to be bounding exponentially. My love for Father and my savior, as well as my love for others cause me such incomprehensible joy that I have no words to describe what I experience. And the experiencing is becoming more consistent - In other words, there is less and less "time" or gaps in my daily life when I am not experiencing this one-ness. My cup truly overflows.

Love,

jo

[_jo1952]

Here is Packers answer to that question.

Should an angel converse with you, neither you nor he would be confined to corporeal sight or sound in order to communicate. For there is that spiritual process described by the Prophet Joseph Smith by which pure intelligence can flow into our minds and by which we can know what we need to know without either the effort of study or the passage of time, because that is revelation (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith [2007], 132). We talk about confining on little computer chips vast amounts of information; through the processes of revelation and through this language of the Spirit, tremendous amounts of inspiration and information can be given to us instantly.

The voice of the Spirit is described in the scriptures as being neither loud nor harsh, not a voice of thunder, neither a voice of great tumultuous noise, but rather as still and small, of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper, and it can pierce even the very soul and cause the heart to burn.

The Spirit does not get our attention by shouting. It never shakes us with a heavy hand. The Spirit whispers. It caresses so gently, indeed, that if we are preoccupied, we can’t feel it at all.

Occasionally, the Spirit will press just firmly enough or often enough for us to pay attention; but from my experience, most of the time, if we do not heed the gentle feeling, if we do not listen with those feelings, the Spirit will withdraw and wait until we come seeking and listening, in our manner and our expression.

I have learned that the very impressive and miraculous spiritual experiences come very infrequently. Something is amiss if they come too intensely and too frequently. The question then arises, from whence come these experiences? Remember that there is a counterfeit.

Thank you Drifting,

It is so difficult to explain. I think Elder Packer's is as good as any. At least, it is a good place to start. For someone who has not yet learned to recognize the Holy Ghost's influence, it is extremely difficult to understand what everybody is describing. I believe that for a person to become more sure of whether they are experiencing the Holy Ghost or not, they must pray sincerely about this issue to their Heavenly Father. They should seek and pray specifically to be able to know Truth; being humble and contrite in their hearts and leaving their minds open so that they can receive an answer and a witness from the Holy Ghost. In order for them to be able to recognize the Holy Spirit, their own spirit needs to be awakened which originally begins with their hope and desire to believe in Jesus (exercising faith in Jesus). Once they become aware of the Holy Ghost's influence, their spirit will know it; as He is spiritually discerned. Until their spirit knows it, they will not recognize that it is the Holy Ghost who has been influencing them. They will come up with other ideas and reasons to explain what they think has been happening; and those ideas and reasons will be related to and be sourced from their attachment to the physical world.

The awakening of our spirits to Truth, which brings spiritual awareness, is what Jesus is talking about when He says we must experience re-birth....being born of the Spirit.

I would also like to point out that when a person receives the Holy Ghost by the laying of hands, that this is the mechanical performance of the ordinance. What got that person to this point to begin with is that they have already exercised their faith in Jesus at which time the process of their re-birth begins to take place because, if they were sincere in the exercising of their faith, then the Holy Ghost has already witnessed to them. If they have not yet understood what has taken place, then having the ordinance of receiving the Holy Ghost is not going to change them. It is the awakening of their spirit to the influence of the Holy Ghost which progresses them on their spiritual journey.

Love,

jo