Always Singular God Plural Persons

[_maklelan]

Sounds like maklelan thinks the Book of Mormon teaches heresy

I don't use sectarian nonsense like "heresy" to describe ideas I reject.

Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Mormon9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

and why do you mention white ??

Because that's the category.

I would say Black Evangelic would be in a higher number disavowing Mormonism as a Pagan Religion

And you would be wrong. White Evangelicals were the only category that swung against Mormonism as Christian. I linked you to the Pew study. Go see the numbers for yourself and stop pretending that facts are whatever you imagine them to be.

[_maklelan]

And Yes Mittens your are right there is only ONE TRUE GOD.
The Bible tells us that there is only one God in all existence (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8).

Please see here. Here's the condensed version:

Michael Heiser, I believe, has the best treatment available of the rhetorical function of the so-called monotheistic sections of Deutero-Isaiah and Deuteronomy (found here). To paraphrase (and expound a little), Deutero-Isaiah is not denying the ontological existence of other deities; rather, he is denying their efficacy and legitimacy. The language used by Deutero-Isaiah and Deuteronomy (“I am and there is no other,” “there is none beside me,” etc.) is also used in reference to Babylon, Moab (Isa 47:8, 10), and Nineveh (Zeph 2:15). The vernacular is placed in the mouths of Israel’s opponents, but the point is clear: these cities are not denying the existence of other cities, but rather that they are at all relevant in comparison (see Ps 89:6 and Isa 40:25). Deuteronomy 32 provides further indication that this is the correct reading. In v. 21 YHWH states, “They made me jealous with a non-god (בלא־אל) . . . so I will make them jealous with a non-people (בלא־עם).” The nation being referenced (Assyria-Babylon) is not one that does not exist, but one that is inconsequential in the eyes of YHWH. That this is part of the same propaganda is supported by v. 39 (ואין אלהים עמדי) and by Isa 40:17: “All the nations are as nothing (כאין) before him, he considers them as less than nothing (מאפס) and deserted (ותהו).”

That the authors of this rhetoric in no way deny the existence of other deities is also made clear by the proximity of explicit mentions of other gods. Deut 32:8–9 and 43, for instance, mention the sons of El and command “all the gods” to bow before YHWH, respectively. In Deut 4:19 the gods of the nations are explicitly said to have been established by YHWH for the worship of the people of those nations. Divine council imagery is also present in Isaiah 40 and 45.

However, it also mentions "other gods." For example there is Adrammelech and Anammelech (2 Kings 17:31), Asherah (1 Kings 18:19), Baal (Judges 3:7), Chemosh (Num. 21:29), Dagon (1 Sam. 5:2), Molech (Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5), etc etc etc. The Bible is not contradicting itself. When the Bible speaks of other gods it is speaking of "false gods" that have no true existence.

Then why does it call upon them to worship YHWH? Why does it say God himself gave them rule over the nations? Why does it suggest YHWH was defeated in battle by Chemosh? Why does it suggest YHWH and El were originally separate deities? Why does it refer repeatedly to the demonstrably non-human "sons of God' (a Hebrew idiom meaning "gods")?

Gal. 4:8 says, "Formerly, WHEN YOU DID NOT KNOW GOD, you were slaves to those who by nature are NOT gods." See also, Isaiah 37:19 and Jeremiah 2:11. God tells us that he alone is the true God and that all of the invented gods of man do not exist except in their own minds. So, we can see that the Bible is not contradicting itself regarding how many gods there are in existence. There is only one.

You're begging the question and cherry-picking proof-texts.

Note: in the verses in Genesis that have God saying "Let us make..., Let us go down . . . , etc." are clues to the Trinitarian nature of God. God is a Trinity of persons: a Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are not three Gods, but one. There are those who insist that the Trinity is polytheistic. But it is not. Trinitarians believe in a single being who is God.

How come that notion took hundreds of years to develop after the death of Christ? There's no evidence whatsoever that Gen 1:26 refers to the trinity.

I guess the Book of Mormon does teach heresy....2 Nephi 31, Alma 11, Mormon 7 of course we know they will take it out of context and say some thing ridiculous like one in purpose or something equally out of context, even thought that is a far stretch for the theme and context of the Bible as a whole. One God means One God........The Holy God is not the author of confusion and would say purpose if that was His intent.

If he's not the author of confusion then why did it take people about a thousand years to figure out that Gen 1:26 was actually talking about the trinity? How come no one ever came up with that idea prior to around the fourth century CE? Why are there so many different ways to read any given text of the Bible if it's so perspicuous?

[_Albion]

As I pointed out on another thread, I checked the PEW study and found no particular reference to the view of Mormons being from "mainstream" Christians. My reading indicated that the poll was taken from the general public as a whole. As I asked then, what am I missing. Can you clarify?

[_maklelan]

Mittens the sad thing is many Christians don't have a clue what Mormons believe hence the polls.

It's more sad when someone barks about knowing exactly what Mormons believe, but is really even further from an accurate understanding of our faith tradition.

Thank the Lord this seems to be changing rapidly with the internet . I have talked with many secular friends and they have even heard that Mormonism is a cult. It actually surprised me what they have heard. I think the whole Romney situation opened people's eyes and they started to check things out.

Yes, so many more people are now profoundly misguided by bigotry and sectarianism on the internet.

Besides there are too many youtubes that have a lot of information if one is searching. Of course you have to way what your read

Do you mean "weigh"?

and see but it does open one's eyes for further research. Heck the Mormons are just realizing it is useless to go door to door as people are becoming more aware....I believe the latest if that they will use Facebook to entice people.

You think that's what's behind the recent missionary change?

[_maklelan]

As I pointed out on another thread, I checked the PEW study and found no particular reference to the view of Mormons being from "mainstream" Christians. My reading indicated that the poll was taken from the general public as a whole. As I asked then, what am I missing. Can you clarify?

Your first sentence is a syntactical train wreck. Could you clarify exactly what you're trying to say with it?

[_Albion]

Rather than answer the question you resort to a superior stand on sentence structure. I asked for a clarification of the statement you have repeated that according to a PEW poll a majority of "mainstream" Christians believe that Mormonism fits under the Christian umbrella. To me the poll, if we are talking of the same one, suggests that the questions were asked of the general population and, except in a couple of categories, not of specific "mainline" Christians. Again, a simple question...what am I missing?

[_maklelan]

Rather than answer the question you resort to a superior stand on sentence structure.

I can't answer a question I don't understand.

I asked for a clarification of the statement you have repeated that according to a PEW poll a majority of "mainstream" Christians believe that Mormonism fits under the Christian umbrella. To me the poll, if we are talking of the same one, suggests that the questions were asked of the general population and, except in a couple of categories, not of specific "mainline" Christians. Again, a simple question...what am I missing?

You are apparently not reading or understanding the poll. These are the following Christian groups identified in the poll:

White Evangelical Protestant
White Mainline Protestant
Black Protestant
White Catholic
Non-Denominational

By the way, the poll also shows that in all groups a correlation existed between higher levels of education and higher proportions of the group recognizing Mormonism as Christian.

[_Albion]

As I read the poll, which is an America only poll by the way, 78.45 of adults polled claimed to be Christian. I don't know how accurate that figure is but I would think it is not accurate if regular church attendance is the basis. Of that 78.4%, 51.3% claim to be protestant broken down as 26.3% evangelical, 18.1% mainline, 6.9% Historical black churches. Catholics are 23.9% of the 78.45% polled. Mormons represent 1.7% of those polled. It is interesting to note that the poll was taken at the height of the 2012 election. While I cannot support it perhaps some who cast their votes were swayed by their support of their candidate since this was a much talked about topic.

You specifically mentioned in your earlier posts "mainline" churches. If you are using the word in the same way that PEW separates them they do not make anywhere near a majority of Christian churches.

Interestingly in another PEW poll Americans were asked what they know about Mormonism. The larger percentage...62.% responded "Not too much/Nothing.

I think you will agree that polls can have many interpretations and do present many questions as to their accuracy based on how the questions are worded. For instance a question being asked: Is the Mormon Church a Christian Church? might elicit a different response than one worded: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church? The use of Christ's name being a powerful prompter. This might be especially true of the 62% who know "not too much or nothing about he church.

Speaking as one who is an active member of the Christian community, involved with active Christian churchgoers in more than one denomination, I stand by my assertion that it is the huge gulf between Mormon theology and orthodox (used in the broader sense) Christian theology that is the cause of the divide and the debate....and that is the essential point of my post which started our exchange.

[_maklelan]

As I read the poll, which is an America only poll by the way, 78.45 of adults polled claimed to be Christian. I don't know how accurate that figure is but I would think it is not accurate if regular church attendance is the basis.

So you're introducing assumptions.

Of that 78.4%, 51.3% claim to be protestant broken down as 26.3% evangelical, 18.1% mainline, 6.9% Historical black churches. Catholics are 23.9% of the 78.45% polled. Mormons represent 1.7% of those polled. It is interesting to note that the poll was taken at the height of the 2012 election. While I cannot support it

It's tough to support empirical facts when they don't support your dogmatism, but the funny thing about facts is that your support has no bearing whatsoever on them.

perhaps some who cast their votes were swayed by their support of their candidate since this was a much talked about topic.

You specifically mentioned in your earlier posts "mainline" churches. If you are using the word in the same way that PEW separates them they do not make anywhere near a majority of Christian churches.

I said "mainstream," not "mainline." I know what mainline Protestantism is.

Interestingly in another PEW poll Americans were asked what they know about Mormonism. The larger percentage...62.% responded "Not too much/Nothing.

I think you will agree that polls can have many interpretations and do present many questions as to their accuracy based on how the questions are worded. For instance a question being asked: Is the Mormon Church a Christian Church? might elicit a different response than one worded: Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Christian church? The use of Christ's name being a powerful prompter. This might be especially true of the 62% who know "not too much or nothing about he church.

So you think it would be more fair to manipulate the questions toward your biases instead of letting each religion decide what name they're called?

Speaking as one who is an active member of the Christian community, involved with active Christian churchgoers in more than one denomination, I stand by my assertion that it is the huge gulf between Mormon theology and orthodox (used in the broader sense) Christian theology that is the cause of the divide and the debate....and that is the essential point of my post which started our exchange.

That's fabulous, but it doesn't change the fact that you are unable to even engage this question without first begging the question. I'll give you a chance to try. Explain to me why Mormons are not Christians without begging the question or asserting a falsehood.

[_Albion]

Nothing you have presented changes my premise that it is the vast difference between Mormon theology and the theology accepted by the majority of Christian churches that is responsible for the perception that the Mormon Church is not a Christian church. I repeat, that is the premise of my original post.