Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[pistolero]

In that same letter, John claims that Rosebud was already contractor and not a W-2 employee. Has this already been discussed? I'm not a gringo, so I don't know if this is significant? But then I don't understand why you would then need to fire a contractor, just don't contract them - job done? Also, if a contractor, do the same unequal relationship rules apply? Confused by these details.

John was mistaken when he thought she was a contractor.

So if there was harassment, it was unintentional (and I have no clue if this should or does make a difference - just curious more than anything else), because he misunderstood her relationship to Open Stories Foundation and also his and her relationship with each other within Open Stories Foundation?

[Lem]

Can I point out the obvious that the only way Rosebud could legitimately claim the offer to reapply was made by Open Stories Foundation in bad faith was to accept the terms and then for Open Stories Foundation to renege?

Absent that, her claim that that is what they “would” have done is as baseless as most of her other allegations.

on your podcast, Hefner clearly stated that even though they offered this, the board had no intention of hiring her back to her same positions. When I pointed this out in this thread, I was told Hefner didn't really remember things correctly and that her memories of the situation are unreliable. The information you presented is reliable, except when it is not? I'm sure you can understand what an untenable position that is.

To your point about waiting for Open Stories Foundation to "renege", think about it. This is a victim, pretty sure she is being taken advantage of. What confidence would she have that anyone would listen or respond if she waited for Open Stories Foundation to renege, and THEN she pointed it out? That's a strategy for people in power, not for a victim being pushed out.

[Esme]

As an aside, why did you leave John Dehlin’s wife’s name unredacted in the data dump? That seems really misogynistic and hateful. If you care about women being victimized as much as you say you do you need to go back and clean that up.

There was some very private information about JD's wife that was redacted, but then mistakenly included in un-redacted form in the same document. So it looks like an attempt was made to protect her (in some sense) but a technological error undid the work.

[pistolero]

jpatterson,

Thanks for the link, I’ll read it.

As an aside, why did you leave John Dehlin’s wife’s name unredacted in the data dump? That seems really misogynistic and hateful. If you care about women being victimized as much as you say you do you need to go back and clean that up.

- Doc

To be fair to JP, he also left RBs name, her ex-husband's name as well as others scattered across the documents. Clearly it was more a random redaction than anything thorough.

I do wish however that when the names were redacted, that you replaced them with labels like A, B, C, D or Rosebud, RBexH, etc... instead of just blank because it's sometimes difficult to follow what exactly is being talked about with whom.

[jpatterson]

Imagine if she had resigned. Then consig would be here saying "she resigned, a clear indication that she knew she did something wrong."

Talk about wanting both sides of the argument.

[jpatterson]

Margi Dehlin is a public figure and the host of an Open Stories Foundation podcast, Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis.

[Esme]

So if there was harassment, it was unintentional (and I have no clue if this should or does make a difference - just curious more than anything else), because he misunderstood her relationship to Open Stories Foundation and also his and her relationship with each other within Open Stories Foundation?

It looks like John was unclear of her status and probably was not considering it at all when they were having the affair. I doubt he thought in his mind "Well, this is ok since she's just a contractor."

[Lem]

Can I point out the obvious that the only way Rosebud could legitimately claim the offer to reapply was made by Open Stories Foundation in bad faith was to accept the terms and then for Open Stories Foundation to renege?

Absent that, her claim that that is what they “would” have done is as baseless as most of her other allegations.

Yeah, it’s really self-serving of those two to pretend Open Stories Foundation was dealing in bad faith. Perhaps that’s why they wouldn’t have much of a leg to stand on in court, because Rosebud didn’t give Open Stories Foundation a chance to shoot itself in the foot. She grabbed the gun, and aimed it at her own foot instead.

- Doc

[pistolero]

Margi Dehlin is a public figure and the host of an Open Stories Foundation podcast, Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis.

Does it make a different that she wasn't a public figure at the time?

[Kukulkan]

I think this point is moot. JD had been doing MS for years at this point. Rosebud had been with Open Stories Foundation for less than a year. Both were asked to resign/terminated and given the opportunity to reapply as contractors. Let's assume that there was only one position available. It's no surprise the board rehired JD considering the work he was already providing. Open Stories Foundation was under no legal obligation to rehire her whatsoever.

Well, yes. Obviously they are going to hire him over her. And the org is within their rights to decide they need to scale back and, as a side effect, eliminate her position.

While John gives the excuse that he needs to scale back to finish his PhD, he also says he needs to have no more drama and he needs to not be managing her anymore. And a paragraph about how the sexual tension needs to stop and is no longer tenable to him.

So while it sounds like "I need to scale back to focus on my PhD," it also sounds like, "I don't want to work with you anymore and if I just eliminate your position, you will have to leave and go away."

After reading through the documents and messages I come away seeing that the relationship soured between them after JD made it clear he wasn't going to leave his wife and kids for Rosebud. From his emails, it is clear that at points Rosebud is berating and attempting to emasculate JD into choosing her.

From the email on Aug 10th

But most importantly -- I don't want to end my marriage. I don't want to desert my family. I don't want to seduce you, and I don't want to be seduced by you -- but the sexual tension between us is no longer tenable for me. It's too risky. For everyone. And it's not going away. Just yesterday we begin faux sexting?!?!?! I can't do this, REDACTED. And you know it's not going to stop. More importantly, your resentment for my wife and kids clearly persists. You call me pussy whipped. You continually insult and deman my relationship with my wife. You insult the way that we're raising our children. You keep telling me that you think I should leave my wife and children. You do this WEEKLY. At least Monthly. Consistently. Reliably. I understand why you do it...I don't blame you for it. I don't even judge you for it. But what the past 6 months has shown me is that our relationship is just not workable...

I think the crux of the issue is that while me and others believe the primary reason that Rosebud was terminated was because of her continuing insistence and harassment that JD be with her, others believe that it was simply because JD wanted 'out' of the relationship and leveraged his position to accomplish that. I agree that the way the board and JD pursued this issue was terrible and messy. But it seems clear to me that it was Rosebud's behavior was the primary factor of the termination.