Why maklelan can't win a debate with me

[_huckelberry]

Hi Mak:
Assuming you are using Psalm 82 as a proof text against the trinity but in favor of polytheism, how do you reconcile that passage with Isaiah 44 and 45?

All the best,

Roger

Roger, I am going to tag onto your question for Mak. He is quite knowledgeable but sometimes a bit of of porcupine. I doubt he would be desirous of reconciling passages from different parts and perhaps times in the Bible. Reconciling different things could garble their individual intended meaning.

It is a bit ironic that Mak is reading this poem more literally than Nipper who is otherwise quite devoted to literalism. I am wondering if Nipper feels he can tell when the divine meaning is literal or not. Mak has good reasons he has pointed to to say some people understood the meaning of the first portion literally. There were many Gods and Isreals was one of them. Just as a matter of reading a poem I do not think it sure if the poet here did. It could be a common stage set to be employed to make a point. (or perhaps it is later readers who read it that way) It seems possible to me that the Poem had stages of life as liturgy where in the degree of literalness of the council changed. I find some difficulty reading verse 6, 7 in terms other than a vivid ironic reversal of the literal meaning of the preceeding. Was that a later addition or was the whole a set up using older religious traditions?

[_LittleNipper]

Hi Mak:
Assuming you are using Psalm 82 as a proof text against the trinity but in favor of polytheism, how do you reconcile that passage with Isaiah 44 and 45?

All the best,

Roger

Roger, I am going to tag onto your question for Mak. He is quite knowledgeable but sometimes a bit of of porcupine. I doubt he would be desirous of reconciling passages from different parts and perhaps times in the Bible. Reconciling different things could garble their individual intended meaning.

It is a bit ironic that Mak is reading this poem more literally than Nipper who is otherwise quite devoted to literalism. I am wondering if Nipper feels he can tell when the divine meaning is literal or not. Mak has good reasons he has pointed to to say some people understood the meaning of the first portion literally. There were many Gods and Isreals was one of them. Just as a matter of reading a poem I do not think it sure if the poet here did. It could be a common stage set to be employed to make a point. (or perhaps it is later readers who read it that way) It seems possible to me that the Poem had stages of life as liturgy where in the degree of literalness of the council changed. I find some difficulty reading verse 6, 7 in terms other than a vivid ironic reversal of the literal meaning of the preceeding. Was that a later addition or was the whole a set up using older religious traditions?

Mak might say: "No, because it is a manipulative translation that presents the exact opposite of what the text says. Why you shared this story is beyond me. It has no relevance to anything." He said this to me when I said that God was being rhetorical with regads to "other gods." God already knows the answer. The Bible clearly states that there are no other gods. HOWEVER, there are things people worship instead of the one TRUE GOD. So, to the Christian who studies his Bible, it eventually becomes apparent when God is being sarcastic... I mean the Holy Spirit is assisting the prayerful Christian in understanding His Word, as a father would show things to his own child and explain them.

[_maklelan]

Strong's Concordance

When you quote Strong's you are basically telling me that you have no idea what you're doing.

aggelos: an angel, messenger
Original Word: ἄγγελος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aggelos
Phonetic Spelling: (ang'-el-os)
Short Definition: an angel, messenger
Definition: a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.
HELPS Word-studies

32 ággelos – properly, a messenger or delegate – either human (Mt 11:10; Lk 7:24, 9:52; Gal 4:14; Joseph Smith 2:25) or heavenly (a celestial angel); someone sent (by God) to proclaim His message.

32 (ággelos) is used 176 times in the New Testament (usually of heavenly angels), but only the context determines whether a human or celestial messenger is intended. For example, 32 (ággelos) in Rev 1:20 can refer to heavenly angels or key leaders (perhaps pastors) of the seven churches.

[32 (ággelos) can refer to "a human messenger" (cf. John the Baptist, Mt 11:10, quoting Mal 3:1; see also Lk 7:24, 9:52). 32 /ággelos (plural, angeloi) refers to heavenly angels over 150 times in the New Testament, i.e. spiritual beings created by God to serve His plan.

In Rev 2, 3, "angels" seems to refer to heavenly angels that serve God in conjunction with these seven local churches.

(Rev 2:1) – "Probably 'the angels of the churches' (Rev 1:20, 2:1, etc.) – i.e. really angels, and not pastors" (DNTT, Vol 1, 103).]

How does any of this bear at all on my concerns?

[_maklelan]

So how does your interpretation of Psalm 82 differ from that of Talmage and what is the basis for the new interpretation?

My interpretation differs from that of Talmage in acknowledging that the Hebrew word elohim was never ever used in ancient Judaism to refer to judges. It was used to refer to deity. Full stop. There was no "honorific" or "metaphorical" usage that appears in the Hebrew Bible. A few different things lead to this conclusion. First is the more widespread rejection of problematic and dogmatic interpretations that satisfy religionists. Scholars these days are not so concerned with making sure they sound orthodox enough, which has freed them from the dogmatic chains that have held scholarship back for so long. This started in German Protestant scholarship, and fundamentalism is in large part a direct response to that more open and honest scholarship. Talmage appeals to English Protestant scholarship, which occupied a middle ground between those two. Modern scholarship has taken the best of all three loci and now tends to operate largely apart from questions of theological orthodoxy.

Next, the discoveries of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Ugaritic texts have advanced Hebrew lexicography more than it has ever advanced before. We have so many more Hebrew and northwest Semitic texts now with which to better understand the form, function, and development of Hebrew from its earliest to its latest stages. One of the interesting aspects of the Ugaritic texts is the presence of numerous literary motifs that are similar or identical to those of the Bible, showing the Bible drew from a broader literary matrix, rather than having invented everything ex nihilo. Look at Isa 27:1:

On that day the LORD with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing [bariah] serpent, Leviathan [LWYTN] the twisting ['aqalaton] serpent, and he will kill the dragon that is in the sea.

Now compare this to KTU 1.5 I 1-3, an Ugaritic text written over 500 years earlier in praise of Balu:

When you struck down Lotan [LTN], the fleeing serpent [BRH], annihilated the twisting serpent ['QLTN], the powerful one with seven heads.

Not only the name of this serpent is cognate (Hebrew LWYTN = Ugaritic LTN), but the two adjectives used to describe the serpent are also cognate. There can simply be no question at all that the tradition in Isaiah is based on the same tradition reflected in this Ugaritic text from multiple centuries earlier. There are even more parallels regarding the divine council in the Ugaritic texts. I already referred to Ps 82:1's use of the phrase "divine council" ('edat-'el), which is identical to the exact same phrase in an Ugaritic text that also discusses legal deliberation among the gods ('DT 'L).

We can find numerous traditions in the Ugaritic texts that are parallel to biblical traditions, and combined with the information the Ugaritic language gives us about the development of Hebrew, that discovery has opened our eyes more to what the authors of the Hebrew Bible really meant than pretty much any other discovery of the last two thousand years. Here are some references to more information about Psalm 82 and the divine council:

K. Budde, “Ps. 82:6f,” Journal of Biblical Literature 40.1/2 (1921): 39–42; Julian Morgenstern, “The Mythological Background of Psalm 82,” Hebrew Union College Annual 14.1 (1939): 29–126; H. Wheeler Robinson, “The Council of Yahweh,” Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1944): 155; Roger T. O‘Callaghan, “A Note on the Canaanite Background of Psalm 82,” Catholic Biblical Quarterly 15. (1953): 311–14; Otto Eissfeldt, “El and Yahweh,” Journal of Semitic Studies 1.1 (1956): 29–30; A. Gonzalez, “Le Psaume LXXXII,” Vetus Testamentum 13.3 (1963): 293–309; Gerald Cooke, “The Sons of (the) God(s),” Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 35.1 (1964): 29–34; Matitiahu Tsevat, “God and the Gods in Assembly: An Interpretation of Psalm 82,” Hebrew Union College Annual 40 (1969): 123–37; Hans-Winfried Jüngling, Der Tod der Götter: Eine Untersuchung zum Psalm 82 (Stuttgart: Katholisches Bibelwerk, 1969); Cyrus H. Gordon, “History of Religion in Psalm 82,” in Biblical and Near Eastern Studies: Essays in Honor of William Sanford LaSor (Gary A. Tuttle, ed.; Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1978), 129–31; Patrick D. Miller, Interpreting the Psalms (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1986), 120–24; Herbret Niehr, “Götter oder Menschen—eine falsche Alternative: Bemerkungen zu Ps 82,” Zeitschrift für die alttestamentliche Wissenschaft 99.1 (1987): 94–98; Lowell K. Handy, “Sounds, Words and Meanings in Psalm 82,” Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 47.1 (1990): 51–66 ; K. M. Craig, “Between Text and Sermon: Psalm 82,” Interpretation 49.3 (1995): 281–84; Simon B. Parker, “The Beginning of the Reign of God—Psalm 82 as Myth and Liturgy, “ Revue Biblique 102.4 (1995): 532–59; Michael Heiser, “The Divine Council in Late Canonical and Non- Canonical Second Temple Jewish Literature” (PhD diss., The University of Wisconsin–Madison, 2004), 74–89; Heiser, “Are Yahweh and El Distinct Deities in Deut. 32:8–9 and Psalm 82?” Hiphil 3 [http://www.see-j.net/hiphil] (2006), accessed 11/ 10/2010; David Frankel, “El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8,” Journal for Hebrew Scriptures 10 [http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/] (2010), accessed 11/10/2010.

David M. Fleming, “The Divine Council as Type Scene in the Hebrew Bible (PhD Diss., Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, 1989); Min Suc Kee, “The Heavenly Council and Its Type- Scene,” Journal for the Study of the Old Testament 31.3 (2007): 259 –73. On the divine council in general, see H. Wheeler Robinson, “The Council of Yahweh,” Journal of Theological Studies 45 (1944): 151–57; Edwin C. Kingsbury, “The Prophets and the Council of Yahweh,” Journal of Biblical Literature 83.3 (1964): 279 –86; E. Theodore Mullen, The Divine Council in Canaanite and Early Hebrew Literature (Chico, Calif.: Scholars Press, 1980); Robert P. Gordon, “Standing in the Council: When Prophets Encounter God,” in The God of Israel (Robert P. Gordon, ed.; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007), 190 –204.

You can find an excerpt from my most recent master's thesis on the meaning of elohim here.

Psalm 82 is one of those passages for which proper translation obviously makes a big difference. I don't know either Greek or Hebrew but just looking at the NIV vs. the KJV reveals how much difference can be made by the variance in translation:

This is primarily because the NIV is aimed at making the Bible less complicated for conservative, which requires the manipulation of the text.

KJV
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

NIV
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5“The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

But the "they" in v. 5 are not the gods, they are the oppressed of the earth who have been without proper guidance. On that, see my SBL paper on Psalm 82 in the Psalms of Asaph (here), as well as Brent Strawn's recent Revue Biblique paper on Psalm 82 that I cited therein, "The Poetics of Psalm 82: Three Critical Notes Along with a Plea for the Poetic."

I take the NIV's rendering to refer to the false gods that were worshiped by Isreal's neighbors at the time this passage was composed.

That's the wrong antecedent for v. 5, but the gods that are reprimanded in Psalm 82 are certainly the gods of the nations. It would be inaccurate to claim they are all false gods, given the fact that Deut 32:8-9 claim that God himself established those gods over their respective nations. This tradition is also reflected in Deut 4:19 and Deut 29:26.

The KJV, however, is somewhat ambiguous. "They" seems to be referring back to "the poor and needy" if not "the wicked."

And that's exactly what the Hebrew indicates. The NIV obscures the Hebrew in the interest of promoting a more conservative and fundamentalist interpretation.

On the other hand, you (LDS?)seem to take it as referring to many other real, genuine gods. Is that correct or am I missing where you're coming from?

No, v. 5 refers to the oppressed and the lost.

What you refer to as "the divine council" is translated by the NIV as "great assembly."

And that's a terrible and a misleading translation. The Hebrew is עדת־אל, which is literally "council of El," or "council of God." El can refer to the high God of the northwest Semitic pantheon (this is the proper name of the high god in the Ugaritic texts) or it can be used adjectively in reference to deity (council of deity, divine council). It cannot be used as a superlative, which is what the NIV does. Again, the NIV is a terribly manipulative and misguided translation.

NIV
God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:

Again, the NIV seems to be making the point that sarcasm is being employed here;

That's because the NIV can't accept what the text actually says.

that the author is sarcastically referring to the false "gods" of the surrounding nations. This makes sense in light of Judaism's monotheism. Or do you not accept that Israel's religion was/is monotheistic?

Monotheism is a modern concept. I've discussed this in numerous places, but see here, here, here, and here, in addition to my thesis referenced above.

Assuming you are using Psalm 82 as a proof text against the trinity but in favor of polytheism, how do you reconcile that passage with Isaiah 44 and 45?

It's not a proof text so much as another brick in the contextual wall. There are many other places where the same ideologies can be found. There's really no need to reconcile with Isaiah. The author's appealing there to rhetoric, like you would if you said the Broncos and the Seahawks are the only real football teams there are, or if you said the Raiders are less than nothing, and not even a real team. He says nations fighting against Israel are nothing and next to nothing, just like he characterizes other gods. That doesn't mean the other nations don't really exist. I discuss Deutero-Isaiah in several of the links above, but see also here and the references I cite there, as well as the more recent Saul Olyan, "Is Isaiah 40-55 Really Monotheistic?" Journal of Ancient Near Eastern Religions 12 (2012): 190-201.

[_maklelan]

Roger, I am going to tag onto your question for Mak. He is quite knowledgeable but sometimes a bit of of porcupine. I doubt he would be desirous of reconciling passages from different parts and perhaps times in the Bible. Reconciling different things could garble their individual intended meaning.

It is a bit ironic that Mak is reading this poem more literally than Nipper who is otherwise quite devoted to literalism. I am wondering if Nipper feels he can tell when the divine meaning is literal or not. Mak has good reasons he has pointed to to say some people understood the meaning of the first portion literally. There were many Gods and Isreals was one of them. Just as a matter of reading a poem I do not think it sure if the poet here did. It could be a common stage set to be employed to make a point. (or perhaps it is later readers who read it that way) It seems possible to me that the Poem had stages of life as liturgy where in the degree of literalness of the council changed. I find some difficulty reading verse 6, 7 in terms other than a vivid ironic reversal of the literal meaning of the preceeding. Was that a later addition or was the whole a set up using older religious traditions?

It is what I call a "gods lament" that makes use of older traditions to rhetorically condemn the gods of the nations and sentence them to death, with YHWH taking over their stewardships over the nations. It is the rhetorical universalization of YHWH. You see at the very end of Psalm 82 that YHWH is called upon to rise up and take over the rule of the nations. At the end of Ps 83 we have the call to recognize YHWH as the Most High over all the earth. My SBL paper (here) goes more deeply into the literary and historical context of this process.

[_maklelan]

Mak might say: "No, because it is a manipulative translation that presents the exact opposite of what the text says. Why you shared this story is beyond me. It has no relevance to anything." He said this to me when I said that God was being rhetorical with regads to "other gods." God already knows the answer. The Bible clearly states that there are no other gods.

God also clearly states that there are other gods. One of those assertions fits with the broader context as well as what we know about Israelite history and literature, while the other fits with quite common rhetoric from the time and from within Isaiah itself. Guess which one it is.

HOWEVER, there are things people worship instead of the one TRUE GOD.

And according to God (i.e., the Bible), he himself established those gods over the nations. He allotted them to the nations.

So, to the Christian who studies his Bible, it eventually becomes apparent when God is being sarcastic... I mean the Holy Spirit is assisting the prayerful Christian in understanding His Word, as a father would show things to his own child and explain them.

It only becomes apparent when one accepts that that is the reading one is required to acknowledge.

[_LittleNipper]

A Letter for you made of Bible verses about the Holy Spirit (Author Unknown)

Bible verses about Jesus conceived by my Holy Spirit[1] And by the Spirit you were made.[2] He is everywhere; there are no places kept secret from him,[3] for he created the world.[4]

My Holy Spirit shows you and convicts you of your wrongdoings[5] and works through your will to enable you to turn to me so that my desires may become yours.[6]

I saved you, not by anything good that you may have done, but out of my mercy—you are saved by your rebirth and your renewal, performed by my Spirit within you.[7]

Some tried to dissuade my Son from carrying out his work,[8] but the truth is that it is better for everyone that he went away, because when he left, he sent the Counsellor to come to you.[9] Jesus was baptized with water, but he himself baptizes you with the Holy Spirit.[10]

By the one Spirit,[11] all my children are born into my family,[12] and the same Spirit is given to all to drink.[13] For there is but one Lord, one faith, one baptism.[14]

Your Counsellor is the very Spirit of truth that goes out from me[15]—through him the Scriptures were written.[16] My Son has sent him to you as a gift from me;[17] I promised you the Spirit, and my Son has poured him out for you.[18]

When you turned to me, my child, I sent the very Spirit of my Son into your heart;[19] he will tell you all about me,[20] for he is the Spirit of wisdom and understanding.[21] He will reveal me so that you may know me better.[22] I give without limit, and the words the Spirit says are my own.[23]

My child, he will clothe you with my power,[24] with robes of righteousness.[25] By him you are reborn![26] So receive the Spirit of my Son[27] and receive his fire.[28] I give the same gift of my Spirit to all who believe.[29] And in the one Spirit there are many gifts.[30]

Know that I live in you through my Spirit, who I have freely given you.[31] My Spirit in you sets you free from the sinful nature[32]—he brings you freedom.[33] For you are led by my Spirit and are no longer under my law.[34]

You have my Spirit within you, given as a deposit guaranteeing that you are mine.[35] My Spirit testifies with your own spirit; in perfect agreement, we know that you are my child.[36]

The Holy Spirit speaks only of what he hears[37] and he knows my very thoughts.[38] He will tell you what has yet to happen, he will bring glory to my Son by revealing to you what is his, for all that belongs to me is his.[39]

You are very special, for do you not know that you are my sacred dwelling place, my holy temple?[40] It is I, your God, who lives inside you; you are not your own.[41] My Son’s own temple was destroyed, but he raised it again in three days.[42] My Spirit raised Christ from the dead, and it is my same Spirit that now lives in you.[43]

My Spirit within you shows that you belong to Christ and guarantees you a wonderful future.[44] Be filled with the Spirit and with wisdom.[45] For, if you do not have my Spirit, you do not belong to my Son.[46]

How can you recognize those with my Spirit? If they acknowledge that Christ became human,[47] that the Word became a man and lived among you,[48] then they are my children.[49]

Do not lie to him,[50] for he has sealed you to be with me.[51] In the past, some have grieved him, and so I turned away and fought against them.[52] There are always those who resist[53] and insult the grace of your God, my Spirit.[54] But, let me warn you:

I will not forgive people who speak evilly against him.[55] Do not extinguish his fire within you.[56] With my Holy Spirit you have been sealed and secured for the day of redemption—do not grieve him.[57]

So, why not live by my Spirit? You will no longer be compelled to do what is wrong, for that is contrary to his ways. But, if you are led by my Spirit you, will do what you desire most.[58] To be under the control of my Spirit is both life and peace:[59] an abundant life,[60] at peace with everyone.[61]

By my will, the Spirit intercedes for you; he pleads your case before me.[62] In a language that words cannot describe, he prays for you in your weakness; when you have no idea what you need,[63] the Spirit of my Son calls out for his Father.[64]

He will teach you everything, for he is your Counsellor;[65] he will lay down wisdom deep within you.[66] As you trust in me, you will be filled with joy and peace; by the power of my Spirit you will overflow with hope.[67]

My Holy Spirit will open the meaning of the Scriptures to you.[68] Using spiritual words to explain spiritual truths, I will teach you through him.[69] Through my anointing you will learn the truth;[70] your anointing will teach you about everything, so remain in him.[71] Let my Spirit rest on you,[72] let him fill you completely.[73]

My child, when you see a tree, you know what kind it is by the fruit it produces.[74] Know too that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, faithfulness and self-control.[75] Composed of all that is good, right and true,[76] it comes through Jesus for my glory.[77] Bear much fruit, my child; you can be sure that it will last.[78]

When you are filled with my Spirit, you may address those in authority over you.[79] You may speak the word of God boldly[80] and you may even speak in other languages[81]—my Holy Spirit will give you the words to say.[82] He will set you apart for the work to which he calls you.[83] There are different types of work, but I perform them all through my children.[84]

As he chooses, the Spirit gives gifts to each of my children:[85] if yours is serving, then serve unreservedly; if it is encouraging, encourage with all your heart; if it is helping, then give generously; if it is showing mercy, then do so with a smile; if you are a leader, then govern carefully and honestly; and if your gift is prophesying, use it in proportion to your faith.[86] My Spirit endows some of my children to be apostles, some to be teachers.[87] But, you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others.[88] For it is through you that we desire to work.[89]

Bible verses

(Back to the top of Bible verses about the Holy Spirit)

Scripture References for My Holy Spirit, your Counsellor, a Letter composed of paraphrased Bible Verses about the Holy Spirit

[1] Matthew 1:18
[2] Job 33:4
[3] Psalms 139:7–10
[4] Genesis 1:2
[5] John 16:8
[6] Philippians 2:13
[7] Titus 3:5
[8] Matthew 16:22
[9] John 16:7
[10] John 1:33
[11] 1 Corinthians 12:13
[12] Hebrews 2:11
[13] 1 Corinthians 12:13
[14] Ephesians 4:5
[15] John 15:26
[16] 2 Timothy 3:16
[17] John 15:26
[18] Acts 2:33
[19] Galatians 4:6
[20] John 15:26
[21] Isaiah 11:2
[22] Ephesians 1:17
[23] John 3:34
[24] Luke 24:49
[25] Revelation 19:8
[26] John 3:6–7
[27] John 20:22
[28] Matthew 3:11
[29] Acts 11:16–17
[30] 1 Corinthians 12:4
[31] 1 Corinthians 2:12
[32] Romans 8:9
[33] 2 Corinthians 3:17
[34] Galatians 5:18
[35] Ephesians 1:14
[36] Romans 8:16
[37] John 16:13
[38] 1 Corinthians 2:11
[39] John 16:13–15
[40] 1 Corinthians 3:16
[41] 1 Corinthians 6:19
[42] John 2:19
[43] Romans 8:11
[44] 2 Corinthians 1:22
[45] Acts 6:3

[46] Romans 8:9
[47] 1 John 4:2
[48] John 1:14
[49] 1 John 4:2
[50] Acts 5:3
[51] Ephesians 4:30
[52] Isaiah 63:10
[53] Acts 7:51
[54] Hebrews 10:29
[55] Matthew 12:31
[56] 1 Thessalonians 5:19
[57] Ephesians 4:30
[58] Galatians 5:16–18
[59] Romans 8:6
[60] John 10:10
[61] Mark 9:50
[62] Romans 8:27
[63] Romans 8:26
[64] Galatians 4:6
[65] John 14:26
[66] Psalms 51:6
[67] Romans 15:13
[68] Luke 24:32
[69] 1 Corinthians 2:13
[70] 1 John 2:20
[71] 1 John 2:27
[72] Isaiah 11:2
[73] Ephesians 5:18
[74] Luke 6:44
[75] Galatians 5:22–23
[76] Ephesians 5:9
[77] Philippians 1:11
[78] John 15:16
[79] Acts 4:8
[80] Acts 4:31
[81] Acts 2:4
[82] Luke 12:12
[83] Acts 13:2
[84] 1 Corinthians 12:6
[85] 1 Corinthians 12:11
[86] Romans 12:6–8
[87] Ephesians 4:11
[88] 1 Peter 4:10
[89] Philippians 2:13

[_maklelan]

A Letter for you made of Bible verses about the Holy Spirit (Author Unknown)

Copied and pasted without attribution from any one of a few different websites.

[_LittleNipper]

A Letter for you made of Bible verses about the Holy Spirit (Author Unknown)

Copied and pasted without attribution from any one of a few different websites.

Read the verses and forget arrogant superficial displays of superiority. You might learn something about God.

[_maklelan]

Read the verses and forget arrogant superficial displays of superiority. You might learn something about God.

I've read the verses many times before in Hebrew as well as in Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, etc. Putting them together like this isn't going to change their meaning. If you'd like to respond to my case, be my guest. These juvenile attempts to evangelize aren't cutting it.