I dunno. A dream job? Making money doing what you were volunteering to do before? Get to work with your AP? Get to be in the inner circle of ex-Mo celebrities? The bottom line was there was a quid pro quo agreement in place. She didn’t offer John a paid position. She didn’t have the power to do that. She clearly couldn’t get anyone fired. John could. She couldn’t.
In other words she eagerly accepted his invitation to be sexually harassed and expected to benefit from that somehow.
Sexual harassment exists independent of that kind of connotation - it can include a quid pro quo arrangement. I’m sure you know that, though.
edit: Quid pro quo also sets the table for your kind of environment now that I think about it. If the subordinate, knowing their job hinges on pleasing the superior, or not becoming a problem for the superior, they’re going to feel obligated to do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. Even if they agreed to the arrangement initially, this still puts them in a tough spot if on any given day they don’t feel like having a ‘naked sexual interaction’ in Des Moines during a conference. Can they ever really say ‘no’ without incurring the wrath of a superior? It gets tricky very quickly when the superior wants a blowie in the car under a security camera because it’s exciting, and the subordinate doesn’t want to do it.
- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
My two cents is Lem convinced me that Rosebud was non-legally actionably sexual harassed by John Dehlin. I can’t completely separate post metoo and what I would have thought 9 years ago. They were both dumb. I feel Rosebud is going to do better and have a better life if she doesn’t pick at the scab, and doesn’t allow others to pick at this scab and instead do her best to move on with her life. I am not enthused with what John Dehlin did, but at most he probably actually has suffered a lot for this which is just. It sucks that Rosebud’s life is in shambles and John Dehlin is doing okay. I am not a fan of affairs, but I also believe in allowing couples to come back together and forgive and they don’t need the peanut gallery judging their relationship. Rosebud could’ve had a better case but she shot herself in the foot at times and prevented the Open Stories Foundation board from proving her right. John Dehlin also shot himself in the foot at times and despite that has come out relatively unscathed, but not unscathed completely.
It was the very condition upon which she became a member of the board and later an employee!
Maybe from John's perspective. Of course we have nothing to indicate she agreed to anything of the sort. If they had something in writing...I mean maybe she did something that stupid...but I doubt it.
Why would it surprise you that he would expect her to keep a bad promise when she made a bad promise? Both of them showed their capability to do the stupid, immoral, and unethical. What surprises me is that anyone continues to have so much sympathy for Rosebud knowing that she made a bad promise in order to carry on a bad relationship that selfishly ignored the well being of two families and one company.
We should say, “A pox on both their houses!” Or maybe, “God help them all.” Instead it’s, “Get that bastard!”
I would expect more from fellow humans, I guess. I can't imagine someone truly expecting another to keep a promise that is so completely awful. I"d expect most of us to be like "well I know you made a completely stupid promise in the throws of passion and it'd be completely awful of me to take it seriously, so I will not hold you to it. That'd be about as dickish a move as one can imagine, given our current situation."
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Sexual harassment exists independent of that kind of connotation - it can include a quid pro quo arrangement. I’m sure you know that, though.
edit: Quid pro quo also sets the table for your kind of environment now that I think about it. If the subordinate, knowing their job hinges on pleasing the superior, or not becoming a problem for the superior, they’re going to feel obligated to do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. Even if they agreed to the arrangement initially, this still puts them in a tough spot if on any given day they don’t feel like having a ‘naked sexual interaction’ in Des Moines during a conference. Can they ever really say ‘no’ without incurring the wrath of a superior? It gets tricky very quickly when the superior wants a blowie in the car under a security camera because it’s exciting, and the subordinate doesn’t want to do it.
What I know of the technical questions and the practical sense I have of whether Rosebud is a “victim” are two different things. She may be a victim by some definition, but I don’t consider her consensual entrance into the company of her lover on condition that she leave when he wanted her to victimhood.
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
I dunno. A dream job? Making money doing what you were volunteering to do before? Get to work with your AP? Get to be in the inner circle of ex-Mo celebrities? The bottom line was there was a quid pro quo agreement in place. She didn’t offer John a paid position. She didn’t have the power to do that. She clearly couldn’t get anyone fired. John could. She couldn’t.
In other words she eagerly accepted his invitation to be sexually harassed and expected to benefit from that somehow.
Wait...what? Now we are saying John propositioned her by asking, "Hey toots, you wanna engage in an affair wherein I have all the power and control, and you get nothing but minimal access to beg me for periodic attention? "
"yessir. I can't wait. Do you wanna do it? " Her conniving mind on the side, "Maybe I can use him to build my ex-Mormon group resume...this is perfect."
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
I would expect more from fellow humans, I guess. I can't imagine someone truly expecting another to keep a promise that is so completely awful. I"d expect most of us to be like "well I know you made a completely stupid promise in the throws of passion and it'd be completely awful of me to take it seriously, so I will not hold you to it. That'd be about as dickish a move as one can imagine, given our current situation."
LOL. Yes, I don’t think much of either extending such an agreement or accepting it, but it seems more people are upset about the former and don’t care so much about the latter. After all, both parties could have been more or less in the throes of passion or calculating. We can’t read their minds.
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
Rosebud made multiple personal promises to me from the very start and throughout to “go away” if our relationship ever got to the point where it was hurting me or the Open Stories Foundation. This was a personal agreement we had made, which she agreed to prior to joining the board or coming on as an employee.
Bingo. This thread is now officially John Dehlin's "Reynold's Pamphlet."
Wait...what? Now we are saying John propositioned her by asking, "Hey toots, you wanna engage in an affair wherein I have all the power and control, and you get nothing but minimal access to beg me for periodic attention? "
"yessir. I can't wait. Do you wanna do it? " Her conniving mind on the side, "Maybe I can use him to build my ex-Mormon group resume...this is perfect."
Yes, we are all capable of writing silent movies with white hats and black hats. What does your scenario read like when you make it sound like a dime novel?
"Great power connected with ambition, luxury and flattery, will as readily produce a Caesar, Caligula, Nero and Domitian in America, as the same causes did in the Roman Empire." ~Cato, New York Journal
