Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

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_Xenophon
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
moksha wrote:Many of Water Dogs speculations seem rather blarophant.


Lol. What does 'blarophant' mean?

- Doc


http://rev.ronv.net/blarophant/index.htm
Conclusion

So there you have it. And unless things change, this page will give the only definition of "blarophant" you will find on the internet. They were just calling Brigham Young a blowhard, a windbag, but wanted to sound more intellectual so they made up a word. This proves the old addage that you should "Never use a big word when a dimutive phrase will suffice."
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

Water Dog wrote:I am convinced Lemmie is a Tobin sock puppet.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I''m honored, this method of attacking when you can't make your point has been going on for a very long time with you, Water Dog, hasn't it? :
a poster, WAY back in 2014 wrote:Waterdog: are you being obtuse on purpose or is this just a Tobin-esque act of derailment?
viewtopic.php?p=790204#p790204

And apparently I'm not the only one who has been asking you for sources, for YEARS:
same poster, same thread, wrote:Your self-desribed age of late 20's is really showing on this thread. Your immature attacks on Southerton and your inability to cite one, ONE source that discredits Southerton is embarrassing.

And the most illuminating:
Maksutov, 2013, wrote:This is WD's way of dismissing whole bodies of knowledge...which just happen to contradict his claims. I don't believe a serious argument is possible with him. viewtopic.php?p=779193#p779193
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
When they know.

How do they know they know?


You're looking for a time frame when I've already pointed out that development happens on a continuum within ranges what of is accepted as typical development vs atypical uneven development.

Let's reframe the question to make it workable.

Q: How do adults know when the child knows their sexual orientation?

A: When the child can articulate factual information and relate relevant examples of those facts to their own experience.

Now, let's use your question so you don't feel ignored.

Q: How do they know they know?

A: Ultimately, the child knows when the child's experience matches factual information that leads them to conclude they are sexually oriented toward one gender preference or another, and rule out the remaining gender.

I've said a lot at this point which you've ignored, so I don't want to repeat myself. What is the formula for "knowing?"


If I can ignore the fact that you have failed to engage many of my remarks here, you can do it, too. I already told you I was multitasking, try a little patience. I've stated the formula for knowing as I understand it to be.


Why did Anne Heche think she was gay for so long? She was part of the whole first coming out tv thing with Ellen. Heche has actually caught a lot of heat for "apostatizing" so to speak. Very similar to being a an apostate in a TBM community frankly. Treated quite horribly. Was she wrong then? Is she wrong about being straight now? How about Lopez? I've got a good friend who told me similar stories. And he's living as a gay man now, has a partner that he lives with etc. But I witnessed him go in cycles. He was gay, then he was straight, then he was SSA / gay Mormon, now he's gay again. He's very transparent about his experience and while he's kind of settled on gay at this point, he doesn't have good things to say about the gay community. He describes them as having been very cult-like and quite vicious towards him throughout his journey.


I'm unfamiliar with Heche's story and I'll likely not investigate it.

Lopez and his associates that spoke before Congress, have emotional and psychological baggage in their personal history, some to the point where I can think of alternative explanations that disrupted their early years that aren't attributable to being raised in an environment with same sex parents. I do think that in the past, I wrote a series of posts going through their self written bio's on this board, noting places where I see alternative influences and explanations for their objection to children being raised by same sex parents. I can't question Heche or Lopez and his associates any more than I can question Savannah and Heather, and even if I could I would only know what they chose to share with me.


And I'm starting to get off topic now, this isn't about gay community culture. But again my point is, how do you know? How does this girl know?


When we're discussing sexual development, I think it's perfectly fine to include the gay community, transgendered experiences in attempt to derive explanations about behaviors we observe in society.

I've stated as best as I can what I believe to be true about how a child knows what their sexual orientation. If you are asking me personally how I knew, I can only tell you age 10, the prettiest little blonde haired green eyed boy I ever laid eyes on. His birthday is today. He has been deceased for many years now. I count myself blessed by times I still dream about him and wish I could stay there just a little longer.

Finding a partner in life isn't just about deciding between boys and girls. What type of personality. What interests and common values, common goals, etc. It's not about being attracted to a specific gender, but a specific type of person.


Agree. Who we are attracted to and who is mutually attracted to us is complex.

Certain traits tend to follow certain genders, but as we've discussed, there are always exceptions to those rules.


I agree that there are no hard and fast rules.

At Savannas current age she may think she's attracted to the girls. But maybe she just hasn't met the right boy.


Maybe she's a little afraid of boys because her father abandoned her. We don't know any more than Savannah knows at this point. We have only her self identifying claims to go on. The point I've been trying to make is that she can know and I don't know why you are resistant to that possibility.

My best guess is that in your gut you believe her mother manipulated her and that could actually have happened.

None of us are really right or wrong here. The only thing we know we can be is respectful of the child and her self expressions.

Boys at 12 are so idiotic, obnoxious, and immature, I'm frankly surprised all girls at that age aren't coming out as lesbian. They're still obsessed with fart jokes at this age. At 12 what the heck is there for the girls to be attracted to?


Older boys.
In terms of the physical traits, there really isn't even that much difference between boys and girls at 12. Girls don't usually have boobs yet.


Take a look at Savannah.

Guys don't have muscles yet.


Because they aren't mainlining testosterone yet.

The guys look like girls and the girls look like guys. If they didn't wear different clothing and hair styles, which is a totally made up cultural thing, you'd have a hard time even looking at people and telling their gender.


I can argue with that, but I don't see it as important. Take another look at Savannah.

Mentally and emotionally they are very different, but physically not that far apart yet.


That doesn't make logical developmental sense to me.

So how in the world is a 12 year old girl 100% sure she's gay and totally attracted to the girls at this point? It's not possible for her to even understand all the different girl vs. boy differences yet. Just sayin.


I'll concede that there are alternative explanations beyond a 13 year old girl knowing or believing 100% that she is gay. But I do think that my comments have been even handed throughout this entire thread in that regard.

The zip tie and plastic bag, being the only obvious exception.
Last edited by Google Feedfetcher on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

Jersey Girl wrote: But I do think that my comments have been even handed throughout this entire thread in that regard.

yes, they have, and thank you for your comments. Fascinating to read, I have learned a lot.
The zip tie and plastic bag, being the only obvious exception.
:lol: :lol: :lol: under the circumstances, you are forgiven.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:I swear it feels like you're just repeating what I'm saying, albeit more gently and eloquently. This is exactly what I just said. We agree completely.


I never post anything of substance. :lol:

Here's the heart of the back and forth.

General rule of thumb when a child approaches you with a sensitive topic such as their sexual orientation is this. Be ready to discuss and never lead the child and only once you've caught your breath because we need to recognize how difficult a situation this is for an adult who is emotionally attached to the child.


Does the behavior of Heather constitute leading?


I haven't watched the entire video w/ Dehlin all the way through. Yes, it's possible that she was led to her conclusions regarding her sexuality.

The sample conversation I posted is the appropriate way to question a child without leading.

I could manage that same conversation differently and convince the child she is gay. I would never do that of course, because I believe it would be a case of my taking advantage of a vulnerable child and tantamount to child abuse. Using my powers for evil as it were. Again, I would never do that.

Some adults would manipulate the dialogue (intentionally or unintentionally) in order to achieve a specific outcome. Some adults are ignorant, they fear the worst and act on their fear when questioning children, and some crave attention and validation for themselves.

It's always a more healthy situation when adults are less egocentric than the children they are raising and teaching.

We don't know the full story, and we can't know, can only witness the public spectacle and interpret for ourselves. Is it possible that Savannah got this public "coming out" idea in her head because of her mother's behavior? Regardless, should the mother have told her not to do that? Still regardless, after it went down should the mother have cast her daughter into the spotlight? On and on.


If it were me, I would try to keep the conversation personal and private, at home. I've already said though, that if my own child were hell bent on sharing their testimony in church, I'd support my child to the hilt. I'd be sitting right in front of her. I wouldn't be video taping her, I'd be looking into her eyes as her emotional anchor.

I have been present at one adoption. Supported other adoptions and various life events behind the scenes as support person. I have accompanied sexually abused children to court who wanted to attend the hearing and conviction of their abuser, so that by their presence they sent the message to their abuser that what was done to them was not okay and they TOLD. I have reported abuse myself. I wouldn't do a thing differently because I have been inserted into the family via my relationship with the children in question and their parents. The end goal always being the health and well being of the child and their family.

What a child needs most in life is one adult who is consistently faithful to them. When the child has another parent or extended family, and particularly when the entire village is consistently faithful to them (in their church home or community) they have it all.

If I were the parent in church that day (and I don't know if Heather did this or not) when the mic was shut off, my daughter asked to stop speaking, as she descended the podium, I would have asked the adult point blank "Do you think we can create a dialogue about this in the future?"

That's exactly what I would have done. In front of the Ward, God, and in front of my child. Especially in front of my child.

In addition to the stuff you've seen take a stroll over to Heather's Facebook page. It's not just this pulpit incident. Heather's Facebook page looks like a psychedelic rainbow factory. She's utterly obsessed with LGBT. Mamma Dragons. Pride Parade. Etc. She's got herself and her daughter mixed up in all these "out and proud" activist organizations. You'll notice for example in a lot of the media photos being used by places like CNN that Savannah is wearing various gay pride T shirts. Those are all photos from before this incident happened.


I haven't seen these. I can't comment.
I don't know what private conversations took place and when they took place.
I don't know if the incident at church happened after a long series of awakenings on the part of the parent and child.
I don't know how far in advance Savannah came out to her mother or if the incident at church was the final public piece for the family, having become involved in pride culture prior to help Savannah find her contemporaries, acceptance, and her voice.

It is my opinion that all of this behavior constitutes leading on the part of the mother... to put it mildly.


It's possible that you're right. It's also possible that Savannah is right about her sexual orientation.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Maybe she's a little afraid of boys because her father abandoned her.

That's a data point I wasn't aware of, one that's pretty big and favors my position. This also helps explain the mother.

Jersey Girl wrote:My best guess is that in your gut you believe her mother manipulated her and that could actually have happened. None of us are really right or wrong here. The only thing we know we can be is respectful of the child and her self expressions. ... I'll concede that there are alternative explanations beyond a 13 year old girl knowing or believing 100% that she is gay.

16 pages, and finally!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_IXzU-lnLU

So at least three votes have been flipped. I think I'm good with that. Hey Lemmie, now that Jersey Girl is agreeing with me, how about you direct your CFRs her way. Or more to the point, why haven't you already? Why is it that you so quickly accept what she's saying at face value while pouncing all over me with "CFR!?" Is it a sexist "sista" thing?


My vote hasn't flipped. The dialogue evolved to the point where I addressed what I think your concern has been.

I don't have a vote.

I can only offer various perspectives. Again, I think I have been more than even handed and inclusive in my replies.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:The zip tie and plastic bag, being the only obvious exception.

I would like to seize this opportunity to highlight an interesting male/female difference. A man would choose a fist, or a gun, or a baseball bat. While gory, these actions are to the point and relatively quick. Leave it to the girl to choose a bag over the head. Savage.


I think you're trying to make my post infer something you want it to infer. Why? Because men don't ask for directions. :lol:

I have the zip ties in close proximity because I made a water feature for a young child this weekend and those are part of the construction. The plastic bags were also in use to gather up small objects for play.

I'm simply resourceful is all.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Ceeboo
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Ceeboo »

wondering if I'm too old to be adopted by Jersey Girl? :smile:

Her posts in this thread give me the strong impression that she is a spectacular mother.




(But she could be just playing me in hopes that I would ask for an adoption) (?)

Peace,
Ceeboo
_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

Water Dog wrote: Hey Lemmie, now that Jersey Girl is agreeing with me, how about you direct your CFRs her way. Or more to the point, why haven't you already? Why is it that you so quickly accept what she's saying at face value while pouncing all over me with "CFR!?" Is it a sexist "sista" thing?

Great, more sexist behavior from WaterDog-Schryver.

Jersey Girl did NOT agree with you, please re-read her posts. And why CFR Jersey Girl when she has documented sources for her knowledge and expertise? You, on the other hand, have yet to do anything but be blopharantic.
(Thanks again, moksha. Great word!)
_Lemmie
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Re: Little girl has her mic turned off during F&T meeting

Post by _Lemmie »

After removing WD's bolding of Jersey Girl that was not in her original post:
Water Dog wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:It's possible that you're right. It's also possible that Savannah is right about her sexual orientation.

Almost word for word what I said earlier... QFT

No. Quoted for accuracy:
WD wrote:I am not challenging the idea that Savannah is gay. I'm just challenging the idea that she could "know" this at 12. Frankly I'm not sure anybody could ever really "know" it.
WD wrote:Sorry, quick thought turned long, but again point being, 12 is too young to "know."
WD wrote:And I simply don't believe this process can be worked through by the age of 12. No way. A kid may "think" they are gay at 12, doesn't make it so.
WD wrote:She has barely started her journey of self discovery and already she's decided she's gay? I'm sorry, but no.

Glad Jersey Girl has changed your mind after 17 pages!
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