Water Dog wrote:Jersey Girl wrote:
When they know.
How do they know they know?
You're looking for a time frame when I've already pointed out that development happens on a continuum within ranges what of is accepted as typical development vs atypical uneven development.
Let's reframe the question to make it workable.
Q: How do adults know when the child knows their sexual orientation?
A: When the child can articulate factual information and relate relevant examples of those facts to their own experience.
Now, let's use your question so you don't feel ignored.
Q: How do they know they know?
A: Ultimately, the child knows when the child's experience matches factual information that leads them to conclude they are sexually oriented toward one gender preference or another, and rule out the remaining gender.
I've said a lot at this point which you've ignored, so I don't want to repeat myself. What is the formula for "knowing?"
If I can ignore the fact that you have failed to engage many of my remarks here, you can do it, too. I already told you I was multitasking, try a little patience. I've stated the formula for knowing as I understand it to be.
Why did Anne Heche think she was gay for so long? She was part of the whole first coming out tv thing with Ellen. Heche has actually caught a lot of heat for "apostatizing" so to speak. Very similar to being a an apostate in a TBM community frankly. Treated quite horribly. Was she wrong then? Is she wrong about being straight now? How about Lopez? I've got a good friend who told me similar stories. And he's living as a gay man now, has a partner that he lives with etc. But I witnessed him go in cycles. He was gay, then he was straight, then he was SSA / gay Mormon, now he's gay again. He's very transparent about his experience and while he's kind of settled on gay at this point, he doesn't have good things to say about the gay community. He describes them as having been very cult-like and quite vicious towards him throughout his journey.
I'm unfamiliar with Heche's story and I'll likely not investigate it.
Lopez and his associates that spoke before Congress, have emotional and psychological baggage in their personal history, some to the point where I can think of alternative explanations that disrupted their early years that aren't attributable to being raised in an environment with same sex parents. I do think that in the past, I wrote a series of posts going through their self written bio's on this board, noting places where I see alternative influences and explanations for their objection to children being raised by same sex parents. I can't question Heche or Lopez and his associates any more than I can question Savannah and Heather, and even if I could I would only know what they chose to share with me.
And I'm starting to get off topic now, this isn't about gay community culture. But again my point is, how do you know? How does this girl know?
When we're discussing sexual development, I think it's perfectly fine to include the gay community, transgendered experiences in attempt to derive explanations about behaviors we observe in society.
I've stated as best as I can what I believe to be true about how a child knows what their sexual orientation. If you are asking me personally how I knew, I can only tell you age 10, the prettiest little blonde haired green eyed boy I ever laid eyes on. His birthday is today. He has been deceased for many years now. I count myself blessed by times I still dream about him and wish I could stay there just a little longer.
Finding a partner in life isn't just about deciding between boys and girls. What type of personality. What interests and common values, common goals, etc. It's not about being attracted to a specific gender, but a specific type of person.
Agree. Who we are attracted to and who is mutually attracted to us is complex.
Certain traits tend to follow certain genders, but as we've discussed, there are always exceptions to those rules.
I agree that there are no hard and fast rules.
At Savannas current age she may think she's attracted to the girls. But maybe she just hasn't met the right boy.
Maybe she's a little afraid of boys because her father abandoned her. We don't know any more than Savannah knows at this point. We have only her self identifying claims to go on. The point I've been trying to make is that she
can know and I don't know why you are resistant to that possibility.
My best guess is that in your gut you believe her mother manipulated her and that could actually have happened.
None of us are really right or wrong here. The only thing we know we can be is respectful of the child and her self expressions.
Boys at 12 are so idiotic, obnoxious, and immature, I'm frankly surprised all girls at that age aren't coming out as lesbian. They're still obsessed with fart jokes at this age. At 12 what the heck is there for the girls to be attracted to?
Older boys.
In terms of the physical traits, there really isn't even that much difference between boys and girls at 12. Girls don't usually have boobs yet.
Take a look at Savannah.
Guys don't have muscles yet.
Because they aren't mainlining testosterone yet.
The guys look like girls and the girls look like guys. If they didn't wear different clothing and hair styles, which is a totally made up cultural thing, you'd have a hard time even looking at people and telling their gender.
I can argue with that, but I don't see it as important. Take another look at Savannah.
Mentally and emotionally they are very different, but physically not that far apart yet.
That doesn't make logical developmental sense to me.
So how in the world is a 12 year old girl 100% sure she's gay and totally attracted to the girls at this point? It's not possible for her to even understand all the different girl vs. boy differences yet. Just sayin.
I'll concede that there are alternative explanations beyond a 13 year old girl knowing or believing 100% that she is gay. But I do think that my comments have been even handed throughout this entire thread in that regard.
The zip tie and plastic bag, being the only obvious exception.
