Is being a "Mormon" as a Man (and Married LDS), Better in the Midst of Wokeism & Secular Culture?

[Free Ranger]

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

Wow. He’s changed his tune. I would also suggest listening. At least to the first ten minutes or so. The thing that Shawn leaves out, however, is the emphasis on Jesus Christ, His example, redemptive power, and following Him. Repentance and such. One can look at this metaphorically or literally, it still acts as an anchor for living ‘the good life’.

I knew he’d come around.

Regards,
MG

Yea, I started listening to him in his anti-Mormonism phase. It's kind of interesting to me that his trajectory mirrors my own in many ways; although he has gone a different route and is more of a supernatural believer than I am capable of. But he too, like me, started holding views about the Bible and Christianity that did not accord with traditional protestantism; and I watched him discuss and debate with Evangelicals which has been very interesting over the years. If people are interested I will provide the links to the highlights of some of these exchanges.

[Free Ranger]

I've been reading through the exchanges on here, here is my input as the OP:

In case anyone is curious this is what I was referring to when I have made comments about how one of my problems is with Woke propagandists taking over masculine hero movie franchises instead of creating their own feminist superheros. I also criticized the dimunition, emasculation, or outright annihilation of the male hero characters with the woke feminist agenda of hijacking on these stories' and characters success and replacing them with female superhero characters. Rather than simply, just as He-Man had his shows and She-Ra had her shows, and respecting the fans of each show, the Woke feminist propagandist have essentially given the middle finger to fans of these superhero franchises, as they clearly had an agenda. Imagine if things were reversed, imagine that every female hero women have valued mythologically was replaced with a masculine alternative. People on the Left would be able to see it more objectively and then they would rethink what I'm talking about. For anyone who disagrees with me, at least be open-minded and listen to what this female has to say, that is of course if the female voice is still respected. See https://youtu.be/Nqmd4iU8J3k

And here's a discussion about the recent Star Wars movies being clearly full of woke feminist propaganda: https://www.quora.com/Is-Star-Wars-The- ... anda?ch=19

I will not reply to every one of the Woke individuals because it feels like the equivalent of trying to talk to a McConkie Mormon using Louis C. Midgley style insults and manipulation tactics. In my journey out of Mormonism I had many personal conversations with Louis C. Midgley, he can be a real jerk; but I'll tell you what, some of the Wokeists on exmo' Boards act worse. But I will give some commentary to the audience that are reasonable and curious as to my point of view and more on my initial question (which began this thread).

Being an exMormon in the early 2000s, I felt that I was leaving LDS irrationality and cultish tendencies and entering into a secular world of pure rationality. Yes I was a bit naïve. I really did think that reason and the scientific method would potentially ideally produce a kind of "Vulcan Zion." I even tried attending an atheist meetup group for a short period. But I kept finding it odd that many of the atheists kept demanding that I accept the atheist label rather than non-theist or agnostic. This and other experience has made me realize that groupthink and cultish behavior is everywhere and probably embedded in human nature to a large degree. And now that Wokeism has infiltrated the atheist community and taken down its atheist popes (like Richard Dawkins), while atheist leaders like Michael Shermer are still trying to keep rationality afloat, I now see that this dream of a Vulcan Zion was as much a fantasy as the Mormon Zion; but at least in the Mormons Zion ideal you had the ethic of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself.

The fact is, we are homoreligious.

I used to think that leaving Mormonism and becoming an exMormon was leaving the mud of superstition and entering the clear blue waters of rationality. And in the early 2000s the exMormon community did seem to have the moral high ground, as many exMormons were a mix of Christian and atheists and Ethical Humanists and there was a general ethical standard and people were reasonable with their political views. During this time, I even had private conversations with John Dehlin, and at that time he was seeking power and status as a middle-way-Mormon and since his insider-group was Liberal Mormons (New Order Mormons) he once joined with others to try and get his group to turn on me, in the comment section of his podcast, by calling me an anti-Mormon (because I kept focusing on the empirical problems of Mormonism). That stung, as I had just had a private conversation with him the day before and we basically discussed his point of view of being a Cultural Mormon and treating it as mythology versus my Vulcan Mentality and focusing on the empiricism of Mormonism. We had a polite exchange and just agreed to disagree. But I felt that we understood each other and he respected my point of view. But he didn't, and he went on to treat me like the enemy and as if we never had that private cordial conversation. Others have commented on John D. Other ex-Mormons have pointed out other problems with John D. And while some ex-Mormons have a problem with him, other exmo's excuse his behaviors the same way McConkey Mormons excuse the problems among some LDS leaders. I bring it up only to point out that there are cultish leadership worship everywhere and it's not just in Mormonism.

One of the issues I was harping on in the early 2000s, was that at that time the Mormon church was not being transparent about the Seer Stone and the Hat (note that as of now, in 2022, the Mormon Church has done a 180 on that; I even saw LDS President Nelson in a video putting his head/face in a hat to describe the process!). I kept saying online in the early 2000s, and everywhere that the LDS church needs to reduce harm by inoculating the members. My ethical protest and campaign for transparency has now come to fruition for the most part. So I have witnessed progressive positive LDS changes over the years. Is it perfect now, of course not! Yet while some are incapable of acknowledging progress, I am.

But now I see many ex-Mormons, like some on here, espousing the same cultish mentality I was fleeing when I left Mormonism. I find the same Iron Rod McConkey type of Mormon personality, only they have taken off that jersey and put on the Woke jersey. So I'm like, it really doesn't matter whether you're Mormon or an exMormon at this point in history (in my view). You have the same human tendencies and personality types inside Mormonism and outside Mormonism. As Kishkumen eloquently put it on this thread, in a one of his comments, "On the other hand, you will find decent human beings everywhere. You will find assholes everywhere." I used to think that the biggest a-holes were only in Mormonism. I now see that that was a myopic and naïve point of view. Spending more years being exposed to other forms of human nature I see that human nature is human nature inside or outside of Mormonism.

So going back to my initial post and keeping things on topic, what is ex/non-Mormonism offering me that's better than Mormonism?

In Mormonism I am not personally attacked as a bigot and a sexist and other disparaging dehumanizing labels. In Mormonism I'm given an identity, I am part of something larger than myself. There is a shared ethic and the ability to have more civility based on that shared ethic and a metaphysical belief in a soul. I have lurked on exmormon boards over the years and had conversations in person with atheistic Woke people and I've seen the worst kind of behavior coming from these folks. So as MG pointed out, to paraphrase, what are we/exmo's offering Free Ranger (me) that's a better alternative?

Psychologists say most of us pick a political stance based on psychological factors that are beyond our free will. In other words, we all think that we are high and mighty and righteous and choose our political stands but a lot of it is biological and psychologically based. The point I'm making is that we are all going to have a political leaning based on a degree of unconscious determinism. If that is so, then people should be a lot more tolerant and kind toward those of different points of view and avoid the cultish name-calling and insulting. But that is not happening here among a certain bunch of allegedly enlightened ex-Mormons, who can quickly see the problems in Mormonism, but can't see the problems in their Wokeism. Here's my point, if ex-Mormons and non-Mormons can be just as cultish and problematic as Mormons, as I've encountered, then why not go back to Mormonism? I mean, besides the empirical issues and the arguments that it is unscientific, which don't matter to me as much as a religious humanist (and there is a growing number of Mormons anyway who hold nuanced views like on the historicity of the Book of Mormon), and I'm seeing it more as an ethical and empowering worldview and tribal culture; then is it just as good or better than any alternative I have encountered thus far? Yes I would have to make some sacrifices and trade-offs and accept some annoying things, but I'm not finding any better alternative at this point. Is there one?

The Cult of Wokeism has infiltrated Atheism and the exMormon Community, obviously there are exceptions, not all ex-Mormons and atheists are buying into it; but the fact that it is a sweeping cult mentality phenomen makes me see that human beings are not rational; and so if human beings are clearly not rational and I'm not going to find pure rationality outside of Mormonism, then why not participate in my cultural LDS heritage like a Jew who becomes a nontheist but still values many or most aspects of his Jewish identity and culture?

As I watched the rise of Wokeism and saw the rational Liberal position get swept up and trampled on in the midst of the bullying stampede of the irrationality of Wokeism, I have often said to my Liberal friends and acquaintances who are still reasonable: it's like there's a sports cult that wants you to join their team. First they're nice and they say "come join our team" and then you walk into their locker room and they have their rival team's mascot hung from the ceiling. You noticed that it appears like a white/Caucasian hetersexual male and the face looks a lot like yours; and they hand you a bat and demand that you join them in beating the crap out of this other team's mascot. And they want you to paint your face and do some chanting of certain phrases and accept certain words and labels, and if you don't then they call you names and insult you and attack you. I'm like, why would I want to join this kind of team?

Personally I feel betrayed. As I mentioned in my initial post, one of the reasons why I left the Mormon church was because of the Seed of Cain Doctrine (which I have since learned came from the Protestant South). Like I said, believe it or not, I am high in empathy. In the early 2000s, I kept saying the Mormon church needs to disavow that doctrine and they finally did in 2013. I have also held other political views that one would call Liberal and stood up for minorities and tried to support and defend the downtrodden. But all of this it seems is not appreciated in the far-Left Wokeist political agenda. It has become like the Catholic Church teaching Original Sin saying I have this original sin of white fragility and I must confess my internal white racism, sexism, etc., and if I don't I must be canceled / excommunicated and metaphiorically strung up and burned at the stake. If I instead argue for the positions held by Martin Luther King jr. my thoughts are ignored and again I am handed a bat and told to go beat the other team's mascot that is a mirror image of me, my ethnicity and gender.

The reason why I resigned from the Mormon church is because I wanted to have freedom of speech. I knew that if I spoke out pubically about my questions and concerns I would possibly come under their suspicions and be called in for discipline. So resigning was largely to give me the freedom to speak my mind. I did not like being called an anti- Mormon either and being threatened with excommunication or disfellowship. But now I am seeing the Mormon Church being more embracing of free speech than ever before. I know most ex-Mormons have a very negative opinion of Kwaku and I'm not in support of everything he says and does; but I have heard him say things like (to paraphrase), "hey you know what I disagree with [an LDS leader] because ya know what I'm not in a cult, " or he will say things that are not in step with the traditional dogma; and he is given freedom of speech in many Mormon circles; but in contrast, I am seeing an attack on free speech by secular woke feminists. As of right now I experience much more muzzling attempts by those outside of Mormonism. So with this new historical phenomenon I actually think right now I have more freedom of speech in many Mormon circles in contrast to secular circles.

This is what I don't understand, one of the main reasons I left Mormonism was because of the McConkie type of Mormons and Iron Rod type Mormons, those who want to act like zookeepers and poke and prod and keep everyone mentally fearful and caged. So I was like I want nothing to do with that and left in the early 2000s. But now I'm finding many exMormons are adopting the same McConkey type mentality and the same Louis Midgley apologetic tactics, only they're doing it to support their own Woke cult. So I'm like, they're not offering anything better than Mormonism at this point. Meanwhile, the Mormon Church demoted Daniel Peterson and Midgely types, and promoted a more pastoral apologetics and are championing more historical transparency. In the last 10 years they've made some huge positive changes, so much so that its almost not the same religion that I left.

I have spent the last couple of years visiting the Deseret Book Store in my hometown and reading through the Joseph Smith Papers and Patrick Mason's book Planted and have read or listened in audiobook form to almost everything Terryl Givens has put out. And I'm like, wow this is not the McConkie Mormonism I left behind in the early 2000s. So I'm seeing positive changes in Mormonism and simultaneously the deevolution of Renaissance Enlightenment/Liberal principles I used to find more in the exMormon community; as postmodernist Wokeism has infiltrated the exMo ranks. So I'm like, Mormons are starting to look like a lighthouse amidst the Woke madness.

So again, why would I not attempt to be a cultural Mormon like a Jewish atheist is a cultural Jew; when wokeism is making it so I'm statistically more likely to have an unpleasant relationship in a secular marriage; whereas if I were to marry a Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormon, I statistically perhaps more likely to have a successful marriage. And why would I not want to be friends with Terryl and Fiona Givens type Mormons when they often take seriously the concept of bearing each other's burdens and esteeming your brother/sister as yourself? Outside the Mormon church, I'm not finding much better alternatives for tribal belonging and ethical solidarity.

I mentioned Shawn McCraney, remember that he was a vitriolic anti-Mormonism type guy for nearly a decade. But after some introspection and seeing the harm of other versions of Christianity and secularism, here's what he has to say about the pragmatic fraternal benefits of Mormonism: https://youtu.be/-rO30Ib_J8Y

So if I don't care as much about the scientific validity of Mormonism anymore (as an agnostic religious humanist), and I'm more interested in the pragmatic, fraternal, existential, and mythological benefits of Mormonism, with it's cohesive structure in maintaining relationships and families: what better social alternative is there? Because at least in the Mormon Community I am respected as a man and my ethnicity is not considered an Original Sin, and it gives me a Meaning in Life and metaphysical life purpose and says we have a soul with intrinsic value and provides ethical accountability for being my best self as a man; while providing a masculine mythology that is inspiring.

So again as my initial post asks, is being Mormon as a man , better in the midst of Wokeism and Secular Culture?

Thank you SO MUCH for this. Love it. An independent thinker that has their own thoughts.

Yes, the church has morphed over the years. An age of Mormon enlightenment you might say. I’m approaching seventy. Two more years. Things have become much more comfortable for those that have at least as many questions as they have answers. There is a place in the church nowadays for those that had to persevere through the days of certain leaders that took a hardline stance on various doctrines and issues.

I grew up in Southern California. In a home with Sunstone Magazine and Dialogue on the coffee table along with the Ensign (if that was what it was called at the time). I had the opportunity to think outside of the bubble. So I know both conservative Mormonism and liberal Mormonism and everything in between. I’ve been able to creat somewhat of a ‘sweet spot’ in my worldview and church view that makes the most sense to me.

There is room in the church for more nuanced Mormons. As you alluded to, obviously you have to choose your words carefully at times and turn the other cheek when needled one way or the other. And be open to the ways that religionists think that might be different than yours. Simple openness and acceptance of others and what makes them tick. Understanding that no one of us has a corner on ALL truth. The reasons you give for looking at the church with new eyes and considering developing a relationship with a woman in the faith are not totally ‘out there’. Yes, you would have to find the right gal. One who is a bit more liberal/nuanced in their views towards religion and Mormonism in particular.

And I think that’s not impossible.

But, and this is important, someone who sees the values/morality and way of living as a member of the church as boon rather than a curse.

Again, I REALLY liked your post. In some ways we may be cut from a similar cloth. I just happened to weather the storm without jumping ship.

Regards,
MG

Thanks MG!

It's nice to hear some positivity after so much negativity thrown at me.

Very cool MG, I grew up in Southern California too, and still reside in California (mostly for the weather). My parents were pretty much McConkey Mormons so there were no Sunstone Magazine's in my house, that is for sure. I remember reading the 1958 edition of Mormon Doctrine just before my LDS mission and being very troubled by the section on African Americans. So like I mentioned the church has come a long way since those days. Mormon Doctrine is not even in print anymore.

Thanks for your constructive comments. As of right now, this is all theoretical and intellectual which is why I am looking for feedback. I have no idea what would happen if I actually attended church and tried it out. I'm kind of waiting till the pandemic dies down as I don't really want to wear a mask at church, not because I don't support the Mormon Church's position on masks (I do), but just because I want to be able to see faces when I interact, when I maybe experiment with going back.

I would have to find a more Liberal Mormon type of gal, yes. I have been thinking that when I was an active Mormon I always did kind of find and hang out with the Liberal Mormons anyway. I was never friends with the Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods. I just never understood them, I grew up in a single-parent household with one foot in the church and one foot out, and in Southern California I had mostly non-Mormon friends in my teen years. So I was always my own kind of Mormon even when I was active. In fact, if one of my siblings had not decided to go on a mission I'm not sure I would have ever gotten active in the Church. I was always considered a little edgy. At my missionary farewell I kind of acted as a stand-up comedian and I was told I made the bishop uncomfortable. To be honest, I also tended to be attracted to female converts when it came to dating, perhaps because they, like me, had spent most of their lives outside the church but found value inside the church as well. I was also a little "naughty" too at that age and so being with converts was better.

I was respected for my kindness and friendliness and loyalty to the church, but I occasionally ruffled feathers with my edgy attitude being from California, especially in the MTC. I used to make my fellow missionaries in the MTC laugh out loud at my wildness and irreverence at times. But I was always accepted by enough Mormons that I never felt ostracized. I've always butted heads with McConkey type Mormons, and so I imagine nothing would be different if I ever did decide to go back. Like I said, not sure it would be any different than life outside of Mormonism as I have run into the McConkey type personalities everywhere in every type of organization or group.

On my mission I of course got along best with the Liberal Mormons and did things like go to the movies occasionally and that kind of thing. Though I was overall a good and loyal missionary.

The first few years off my mission I would say were my happiest times in life probably. All I did was enjoy the Mormon socials and dating and going to University in Southern California. Then I began questioning the Mormon church and then my life went down the path it did.

When I was in my anti-Mormonism phase I would have never said this and admitted it. I would have slapped the me now in the face for even saying this. But I can honestly say that my life would have been better off overall if I stayed in the Mormon Church. I know that every exmormon will be different. But for me, questioning the Mormon Church and entering into the world of scientism and worldview-atheism, just led me into an existential depression and funk that I never really got out of in my thirties. I fully imbibed the secular buddhistic (there's no soul/Self; "all is impermanent"), progressivism (anti-competitiveness), secular atheistic culture for quite some time. It just turned me into a wallflower which was easy as an introvert to do. I can honestly say now that I would have been better off if I stayed in the Mormon Church.

I know that that may trigger some people who have found meaning and purpose and a healthier life outside the Church, but again everybody's story is different. I am merely expressing my story.

[huckelberry]

freerangers long post has been copied several times, I will not recopy it. I did listen to his first link where a woman was explaining her criticism of recent woke feminist movies. I thought it had thoughtful comments. She was not against strong women roles but complained some recent movies came across as poor movies. Part of the problem was strong women characters who mirrored negative male characteristics and felt entitled to do so. They did not have to develop their strengths but just had them making them less meaningful.

I think criticism of an artistic effort can clarify social attitudes. People not likeing a movie is also an important criticism sometimes.

I listened for a while to the exmormon Shawn McCraney. He made some observations about the practical community in Mormonism. He then repeated himself an absurd number of times. I skipped ahead and he seemed to be working some version of, you better get your come to Jesus right or....

Freeranger, you sound like you are frightened by the negative extremes in wokeness far beyond their significance. At least to my knowledge there is nothing going on fitting your lockerroom image. It is disturbing and I really do not know why you would feel such things. The existence of some feminists who are genuinely hostile to males is not new. They do not run the world and one should not get to panicky about their feelings. well keeping some distance might be a circumspect thing to do.

[Free Ranger]

freerangers long post has been copied several times, I will not recopy it. I did listen to his first link where a woman was explaining her criticism of recent woke feminist movies. I thought it had thoughtful comments. She was not against strong women roles but complained some recent movies came across as poor movies. Part of the problem was strong women characters who mirrored negative male characteristics and felt entitled to do so. They did not have to develop their strengths but just had them making them less meaningful.

I think criticism of an artistic effort can clarify social attitudes. People not likeing a movie is also an important criticism sometimes.

I listened for a while to the exmormon Shawn McCraney. He made some observations about the practical community in Mormonism. He then repeated himself an absurd number of times. I skipped ahead and he seemed to be working some version of, you better get your come to Jesus right or....

Freeranger, you sound like you are frightened by the negative extremes in wokeness far beyond their significance. At least to my knowledge there is nothing going on fitting your lockerroom image. It is disturbing and I really do not know why you would feel such things. The existence of some feminists who are genuinely hostile to males is not new. They do not run the world and one should not get to panicky about their feelings. well keeping some distance might be a circumspect thing to do.

Thanks for for not gaslighting me and actually recognizing the good points the female makes in that YouTube video huckelberry.

Yeah, I should have said to just listen to to the Shawn McCcraney video for about 30 minutes as he then goes on to give his point of view: that you should not go to the Mormon church because he disagrees with utilitarianism and believes in absolute Truth and his version of Christianity is best. I like the new Shawn McCraney compared to the former Evangelical Fundamentalist McCcraney, but obviously I don't agree with everything he says and does. I should also add that McCraney has been completely honest in admitting that his own instinctual mammalian Nature made it (in his mind) impossible to live up to the standards of Mormonism; and he only found freedom in the Evangelical concept of Grace. I also like Shawn because he admits that it's important to have a religion/Ethos to keep his narcissistic tendencies in check. He openly says that he can be an "Effer"/F*#er without his belief system, but his belief in Christ keeps him a better person.

If I recall correctly, an atheist deprogrammer (doing "Street epistemology") who went on John Dehlin's show decided not to try and do Street epistemology on Shawn because he could see that Shawn was better off as a Christian.

By the way, side note: when I was an atheist secularist, I read
A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian, which led to this practice of street epistemology. I also followed the life of Peter Boghossian ever since I was an atheist. Now he has pointed out that Christianity is no longer really a problem but that Wokeism has literally caused him personal harm and he was essentially bullied out of his Professor position. So those who think that I'm exaggerating simply haven't looked into it enough.

Again, to each his own. I'm only telling my story and discussing what might be best for me, not anyone else. Although, if someone else finds my words useful, that's okay too.

Well, I would say that using the word "frightened' is a bit of a caricature. If I might say this politely, Tell that to Peter Boghossian! I would say a better word is that I am irritated and concerned at the rising Wokeism I see, especially here where I live in Southern California. But I do agree with you that no they have not taken over the world. But just because you yourself have not experienced what I'm describing does not mean that I haven't. Respectfully, please learn more about atheists like Boghossian from their own words not just their critics, in order to better understand where I am coming from on this issue regarding wokeism.

Perhaps I failed to communicate more effectively, but the larger point I was making is that human beings by Nature are tribal mammals and not purely rational and so because we are Homoreligious, and I'm seeing the same kind of irrationality and personality types outside of Mormonism, as in Mormonism, then I'm feeling like as a non-Woke man I might be better off in the Mormon Community.

As in, why I should not benefit from the practical benefits of Mormonism that Shawn McCraney rightly points out?

[Marcus]

Thanks for for not gaslighting me and actually recognizing the good points the female makes in that YouTube video…

Free Ranger, that’s not an appropriate way to speak about anyone. She is not “the female,” she has a name. Please refer to her the way you referred to Shawn McCraney, below:

Yeah, I should have said to just listen to to the Shawn McCcraney video

[Morley]

I can honestly say now that I would have been better off if I stayed in the Mormon Church

...and I'm seeing the same kind of irrationality and personality types outside of Mormonism, as in Mormonism, then I'm feeling like as a non-Woke man I might be better off in the Mormon Community.

You should absolutely go back to being a Mormon. What are you waiting for? Give your bishop a call.

[Free Ranger]

Thanks for for not gaslighting me and actually recognizing the good points the female makes in that YouTube video…

Free Ranger, that’s not an appropriate way to speak about anyone. She is not “the female,” she has a name. Please refer to her the way you referred to Shawn McCraney, below:

Yeah, I should have said to just listen to to the Shawn McCcraney video

I told myself I wasn't going to keep responding to you because it's a waste of energy. You trying to pigeonhole me again and fit me into the mold of your imagination is staggeringly wrong; the truth is I know Shawn McCraney because I have been listening to him on and off for over a decade. So his name of course is ready on my mind. The video discussing movies was by someone I don't know and they did not make the name readily available; and so of course I did not think to mention her name. If the video was made by a guy I would have equally said, the video by this guy. If I had said that you would not be nitpicking and saying why didn't use the guys name like you did McCranie's name.

I was also intending to emphasize that she was a female because people on your extreme side of the political spectrum seem to take a woman criticizing wokeism more seriously/authoritatively, than if it had been by a guy.

You really want to pigeonhole me so bad that you're nitpicking. It is cynical and negative attitude and I want nothing to do with it. You are just making Mormon culture look more and more appealing by contrast.

And I'm serious when I say this, do you have an ethic of any kind? Do you have any interest in treating me as a human being? What are your ethical standards that you abide by? Do you believe that we have intrinsic worth as a soul or Self, or did we just evolve and you're more of a postmodernist nihilist and have no ethical stance, only machiavellian manipulations and power plays and mean-spiritedness that Trump's civility and you have no desire to humanize me as your interlocutor?

Why is it that the ideas in your head that might differ from the ideas in my head, justify your destructive verbal vehavior towards me? And how is your behavior any better than the worst behavior of the worst kind of Mormons?

[Marcus]

Free Ranger, that’s not an appropriate way to speak about anyone. She is not “the female,” she has a name. Please refer to her the way you referred to Shawn McCraney, below:

I told myself I wasn't going to keep responding to you because it's a waste of energy. You trying to pigeonhole me again and fit me into the mold of your imagination is staggeringly wrong; the truth is I know Shawn McCraney because I have been listening to him on and off for over a decade. So his name of course is ready on my mind. The video discussing movies was by someone I don't know and they did not make the name readily available; and so of course I did not think to mention her name. If the video was made by a guy I would have equally said, the video by this guy. If I had said that you would not be nitpicking and saying why didn't use the guys name like you did McCranie's name.

I’m not “pigeonholing” you, I am pointing out that referring to a person as “the female” is inappropriate. If you don’t know or remember her name, you could say “the video by the woman,” which would be the equivalent of your example “the video by the guy.”

Referring to a person as “the female” is not the equivalent of your example.

I was also intending to emphasize that she was a female because people on your extreme side of the political spectrum seem to take a woman criticizing wokeism more seriously/authoritatively, than if it had been by a guy.

Your assumptions about me are incorrect, as are your stereotypes in general, but if you wanted to emphasize it, you could have said “the video by the woman” which would have made your point and would have been the equivalent of your example “the video by the guy.”

And I'm serious when I say this, do you have a moral ethics of any kind? Do you have any interest in treating me as a human being? What are your ethical standards that you abide by?

I am pointing out that you are inappropriately referring to women, in an unequal manner to your references about men. Your other questions are just you attacking.

Do you believe that we have intrinsic worth as a soul by the we just evolved and so you're more of a postmodernist in your ethical stance and this power plays and mean-spiritedness Trump's civility?

i don’t understand your grammar frequently, this is another case. What are you asking?

[MG 2.0]

Free Ranger, that’s not an appropriate way to speak about anyone. She is not “the female,” she has a name. Please refer to her the way you referred to Shawn McCraney, below:

I told myself I wasn't going to keep responding to you because it's a waste of energy. You trying to pigeonhole me again and fit me into the mold of your imagination is staggeringly wrong; the truth is I know Shawn McCraney because I have been listening to him on and off for over a decade. So his name of course is ready on my mind. The video discussing movies was by someone I don't know and they did not make the name readily available; and so of course I did not think to mention her name. If the video was made by a guy I would have equally said, the video by this guy. If I had said that you would not be nitpicking and saying why didn't use the guys name like you did McCranie's name.

I was also intending to emphasize that she was a female because people on your extreme side of the political spectrum seem to take a woman criticizing wokeism more seriously/authoritatively, than if it had been by a guy.

You really want to pigeonhole me so bad that you're nitpicking. It is cynical and negative attitude and I want nothing to do with it. You are just making Mormon culture look more and more appealing by contrast.

And I'm serious when I say this, do you have an ethic of any kind? Do you have any interest in treating me as a human being? What are your ethical standards that you abide by? Do you believe that we have intrinsic worth as a soul or Self, or did we just evolve and you're more of a postmodernist nihilist and have no ethical stance, only machiavellian manipulations and power plays and mean-spiritedness that Trump's civility and you have no desire to humanize me as your interlocutor?

Why is it that the ideas in your head that might differ from the ideas in my head, justify your destructive verbal vehavior towards me? And how is your behavior any better than the worst behavior of the worst kind of Mormons?

It’s about time someone called ‘they’ out for who they are and their modus operandi. I’m not sure if this is a singular or plural pronoun. Very confusing. I just know that I’m to address Marcus/Lemmie as ‘they’. I should pull a Jordan Peterson and refuse to cave to this crap, but the fact is I don’t actually know if Marcus/Lemmie is a biological male or female. I’d hate to say he if they is a she or she if they is a he.

Crazy weird. At least in my book. A bit more clarity would help.

They (Marcus/Lemmie) is making it a LOT harder than they need to. If I was ‘them’ I would want to be a bit more clear. ‘They’ just doesn’t quite do it.

‘They’ don’t seem to have much of a moral compass, at least from what I’ve observed over time. They are somewhat of an enigma to me. It definitely isn’t worth the time/trouble trying to have a conversation with them (singular??). They are the master, or so they think, of word manipulation and setting up strawmen to attack.

I’m tempted to go ahead and put them on ignore. I’ve wasted a LOT of time trying to get them to come around to no avail. They are who they are.

Regards,
MG

[Free Ranger]

I told myself I wasn't going to keep responding to you because it's a waste of energy. You trying to pigeonhole me again and fit me into the mold of your imagination is staggeringly wrong; the truth is I know Shawn McCraney because I have been listening to him on and off for over a decade. So his name of course is ready on my mind. The video discussing movies was by someone I don't know and they did not make the name readily available; and so of course I did not think to mention her name. If the video was made by a guy I would have equally said, the video by this guy. If I had said that you would not be nitpicking and saying why didn't use the guys name like you did McCranie's name.

I was also intending to emphasize that she was a female because people on your extreme side of the political spectrum seem to take a woman criticizing wokeism more seriously/authoritatively, than if it had been by a guy.

You really want to pigeonhole me so bad that you're nitpicking. It is cynical and negative attitude and I want nothing to do with it. You are just making Mormon culture look more and more appealing by contrast.

And I'm serious when I say this, do you have an ethic of any kind? Do you have any interest in treating me as a human being? What are your ethical standards that you abide by? Do you believe that we have intrinsic worth as a soul or Self, or did we just evolve and you're more of a postmodernist nihilist and have no ethical stance, only machiavellian manipulations and power plays and mean-spiritedness that Trump's civility and you have no desire to humanize me as your interlocutor?

Why is it that the ideas in your head that might differ from the ideas in my head, justify your destructive verbal vehavior towards me? And how is your behavior any better than the worst behavior of the worst kind of Mormons?

It’s about time someone called ‘they’ out for who they are and their modus operandi. I’m not sure if this is a singular or plural pronoun. Very confusing. I just know that I’m to address Marcus/Lemmie as ‘they’. I should pull a Jordan Peterson and refuse to cave to this crap, but the fact is I don’t actually know if Marcus/Lemmie is a biological male or female. I’d hate to say he if they is a she or she if they is a he.

Crazy weird. At least in my book. A bit more clarity would help.

They (Marcus/Lemmie) is making it a LOT harder than they need to. If I was ‘them’ I would want to be a bit more clear. ‘They’ just doesn’t quite do it.

‘They’ don’t seem to have much of a moral compass, at least from what I’ve observed over time. They are somewhat of an enigma to me. It definitely isn’t worth the time/trouble trying to have a conversation with them (singular??). They are the master, or so they think, of word manipulation and setting up strawmen to attack.

I’m tempted to go ahead and put them on ignore. I’ve wasted a LOT of time trying to get them to come around to no avail. They are who they are.

Regards,
MG

Exactly! As you put it, "a...master, or so they think, of word manipulation and setting up strawmen to attack."

Marcus is just hijacking the thread for his own propaganda purposes instead of letting other people have a good faith conversation. It's basically the equivalent of interrupting an award show by feeling entitled to do so.

I didn't know you could put someone on ignore. How do you do that?

By the way, Marcus if you want to private message me and have a friendly and mature conversation and help me understand where you're coming from better and how you actually have an ethic and good intentions. I'm open-minded and will have a conversation with you. But I'm not interested in giving these kind of antics any more of my energy or an audience.