Church membership numbers not good.

[¥akaSteelhead]

[MG 2.0]

*bump

I don't follow you that closely, MG. But I'm fairly confident we've discussed your unorthodox beliefs before. If you consider yourself completely orthodox then you have my apologies for misunderstanding.

If you read my response to Morley on the previous page of this thread it may help you understand the way I view ONE particular issue that you and others would consider to be problematical. You might call my thinking nuanced or unorthodox. Maybe it is to some extent. But my core beliefs in the divine origins of the Book of Abraham, that issue I refer to in the post to Morley, are still intact.

The thing is, drumdude, obviously someone that looks, with faith, at one religious issue or another is going to have to dig a little deeper than someone who either is unaware of a particular issue or ignores it completely. I’m neither one of those. So of course I’m going to do some deconstructing and reconstructing. Something that not a few people fail to do once they become aware of various issues.

And that is unfortunate.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Just to get back to the topic,

I was going to put the rest of my updated charts here that I've shared before, but the board says my quota is reached. I'll see if I can figure it out later, for any interested parties.

Hi d stem, what’s the deal with a quota like that? I hope someone can figure that out, I’m sure it’s just a random setting from the switchover.

Anyway, I like seeing your charts so I hope you don’t mind I experimented with posting your ibb link to see if it would bring them over as images:

[drumdude]

I don't follow you that closely, MG. But I'm fairly confident we've discussed your unorthodox beliefs before. If you consider yourself completely orthodox then you have my apologies for misunderstanding.

If you read my response to Morley on the previous page of this thread it may help you understand the way I view ONE particular issue that you and others would consider to be problematical. You might call my thinking nuanced or unorthodox. Maybe it is to some extent. But my core beliefs in the divine origins of the Book of Abraham, that issue I refer to in the post to Morley, are still intact.

The thing is, drumdude, obviously someone that looks, with faith, at one religious issue or another is going to have to dig a little deeper than someone who either is unaware of a particular issue or ignores it completely. I’m neither one of those. So of course I’m going to do some deconstructing and reconstructing. Something that not a few people fail to do once they become aware of various issues.

And that is unfortunate.

Regards,
MG

You would expect to find these messy issues in any religion, because 1) they can’t all be true and therefore 2) they’re all frauds except one or possible none.

You would expect to find less or none of these messy issues if one religion were supposed to stand out as being more true or the only true religion.

Essentially, Mormonism looks and acts identically to a fraudulent religion. And your coping mechanisms would work equally well on any fraudulent religion to maintain belief.

[doubtingthomas]

Essentially, Mormonism looks and acts identically to a fraudulent religion. And your coping mechanisms would work equally well on any fraudulent religion to maintain belief.

No, you just don't get it, god works in mysterious ways. Remember?

[MG 2.0]

If you read my response to Morley on the previous page of this thread it may help you understand the way I view ONE particular issue that you and others would consider to be problematical. You might call my thinking nuanced or unorthodox. Maybe it is to some extent. But my core beliefs in the divine origins of the Book of Abraham, that issue I refer to in the post to Morley, are still intact.

The thing is, drumdude, obviously someone that looks, with faith, at one religious issue or another is going to have to dig a little deeper than someone who either is unaware of a particular issue or ignores it completely. I’m neither one of those. So of course I’m going to do some deconstructing and reconstructing. Something that not a few people fail to do once they become aware of various issues.

And that is unfortunate.

Regards,
MG

You would expect to find these messy issues in any religion, because 1) they can’t all be true and therefore 2) they’re all frauds except one or possible none.

You would expect to find less or none of these messy issues if one religion were supposed to stand out as being more true or the only true religion.

Essentially, Mormonism looks and acts identically to a fraudulent religion. And your coping mechanisms would work equally well on any fraudulent religion to maintain belief.

Messy issues are in the eye of the beholder. Often, messy issues become less messy with further investigation.

Which religious sect or system would you suggest is ‘True’ based upon your definition of messiness and the lack thereof?

I know we are on a derail course, but it’s interesting that this idea of ‘messiness’ and the way truth is determined by the AMOUNT of perceived messiness plays into church activity or inactivity. If numbers of converts are decreasing I’m not surprised that the internet and the availability of ‘messy’ information has played a part.

People are being steered one way, but course corrections (alternate points of view and information) could make a difference. Easier said than done with the preponderance of incomplete and antagonistic information available.

Another interesting thing is that over time opposition and so called messiness can…with guidance and course correction…become something beautiful and worthy of admiration.

Temples and the number of locations now throughout the world demonstrate the beauty that followers of Christ see in the gospel plan of happiness. Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church.

Regards,
MG

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church.

Regards,
MG

[Chap]

Temples and the number of locations now throughout the world demonstrate the beauty that followers of Christ see in the gospel plan of happiness. Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church

It would be more accurate to say that they indicate the amount of spare cash that the CoJCoLDS has to spend on what are essentially vanity projects.

Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

People appear to be slipping away from the church in unprecedented numbers, but look at all the temples ...

[Dr Exiled]

You would expect to find these messy issues in any religion, because 1) they can’t all be true and therefore 2) they’re all frauds except one or possible none.

You would expect to find less or none of these messy issues if one religion were supposed to stand out as being more true or the only true religion.

Essentially, Mormonism looks and acts identically to a fraudulent religion. And your coping mechanisms would work equally well on any fraudulent religion to maintain belief.

Messy issues are in the eye of the beholder. Often, messy issues become less messy with further investigation.

Which religious sect or system would you suggest is ‘True’ based upon your definition of messiness and the lack thereof?

I know we are on a derail course, but it’s interesting that this idea of ‘messiness’ and the way truth is determined by the AMOUNT of perceived messiness plays into church activity or inactivity. If numbers of converts are decreasing I’m not surprised that the internet and the availability of ‘messy’ information has played a part.

People are being steered one way, but course corrections (alternate points of view and information) could make a difference. Easier said than done with the preponderance of incomplete and antagonistic information available.

Another interesting thing is that over time opposition and so called messiness can…with guidance and course correction…become something beautiful and worthy of admiration.

Temples and the number of locations now throughout the world demonstrate the beauty that followers of Christ see in the gospel plan of happiness. Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church.

Regards,
MG

The problem is that the issues are messy and should point to disbelief. Yet, you want everyone to suspend their disbelief, rationalizing the clear fraud. No thanks. Joseph Smith hid his plates from the world because they weren't what he claimed they were. That is the obvious conclusion. His magic rock couldn't find the lost 116 pages. He rewrote his supposed revelations when it suited him. Wouldn't God be upset with the edits if these were actually God's words? And on and on .....

What would it take for you to no longer rationalize the "messy" issues? For example, if we discovered proof that Joseph Smith was sleeping with young boys, would that be the deal breaker? I'm sure if we had that evidence, you and other faithful members would immediately begin the denial dance, making attempts at gaslighting. Or, what if we had a confession letter from Joseph Smith, admitting that he made it up so as to bring about innovations to a fallen christianity? Would that change your mind about its truthfulness? Or would you rationalize a God that misleads to bring about His supposed truth?

[drumdude]

I’ll put it another way, how would you tell the difference between a church that worships mamon (money) and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

They’re again, indistinguishable.


It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, but Daniel Peterson just posted an article in interpreter telling us it’s definitely not a duck.