Church membership numbers not good.

[Morley]

I thought that you had expressed the belief that the Book of Abraham should be removed from the canon.

Yes/no…but not really. In other words I took the position that the Book of Abraham was a translation from papyri but it was somewhat of a mishmash in the sense that some of the papyri may have been missing and we of course have issues with the facsimilies. We have a scripture that was printed in serial form and then later canonized after years had gone by. The provenance chain (the place where it begins, where it springs into being…all of the moving parts) from mummies to canonization in SL is a long and somewhat convoluted one.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some individual issues that came packed in with an overall scriptural tome which was produced as a midrashic composition. The Book of Abraham as a whole is canonized scripture with scriptural authority and importance to LDS doctrine but there could be midrashic elements that slipped through the canonization processes which are problematical but to the average Latter Day Saint don’t make any difference. But at the same time those elements may be inspired/revelatory as they teach truths in regards to Abraham’s experiences and doctrinal teachings.

A mixed bag.

Now if I was to find out that the facsimilies aren’t a problem at all, that would be awesome. But I recognize the controversial nature of the Book of Abraham project and am willing to shelve those things that I haven’t seen scholars resolve for a fact. The reason is that I see revelation and the ancient world through the doctrines taught in the Book of Abraham. They ring true to me. Yes, some of those doctrines/ideas were being tossed around at the time of Joseph Smith BUT they had not been disseminated to mankind in scriptural form. The Book of Abraham and the voice of the ancients put those doctrines front and center for our age/time.

Another template of sorts to get ‘true doctrine’ out there. I like templates/scaffolding to project ideas and truths. Those templates/scaffoldings exist in the real world without having to come up with them whole cloth. That’s another thing that is a testimony of the restoration to me. Much of what Joseph taught was already here but it was scattered all over the place and needed to be organized and put into scriptural form with divine authority and stamp of approval.

I don’t expect that the Book of Abraham would be decanonized. Why? Because of the overall bearing it has as revealed scripture. Which I’m not at odds with at all.

As far as it is translated correctly.

Many decades ago, I was a tithe-paying, church-attending unbeliever. I was teaching the Gospel Doctrine class, but when the subject matter switched from the Old Testament to the Book of Mormon, I told the bishop that I needed to be released from the calling. I privately explained I didn't believe in the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon, so to continue teaching would be dishonest.

That admission was the beginning of the end for me. If I had come out in Fast and Testimony meeting, I'm sure that it would have even been worse.

But things may be different these days. And different for you.

I do think that there is more openness to ‘variations on the theme’ as long as one sees the composer as being proficient in their creation of the magnum opus as a whole.

After all, it is apparent, at least to me, that God DOES work in mysterious ways his works and wonders to perform. In regards to the Book of Abraham I don’t think the whole story of its creation from start to finish (and it wasn’t actually finished if I remember correctly) is known and/or is a done deal.

The Book of Abraham is the little brother to the Book of Mormon, in a sense. If the Book of Mormon is ‘true’, which I believe enough evidence supports, then it is wise to cut the Book of Abraham some slack and be patient and willing to stick with what is known and be willing to wait for further light and knowledge to come forth in regards to issues related to some of the facsimilies, etc.

I am fully supportive of the work John Gee, Kerry Mulestein and others have done with the Book of Abraham. They are men of faith and testimony in the restoration. I am prone to go generally in their direction rather than in the direction of those that have apostatized from the church and left EVERYTHING behind.

Given away their birthright, so to speak.

I’ll leave it at that.

Regards,
MG

Ha! My good faith question elicited a jeremiad. This is all on me. I should have been able to predict this.

Thank you for responding anyway, MG.

[MG 2.0]

Temples and the number of locations now throughout the world demonstrate the beauty that followers of Christ see in the gospel plan of happiness. Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church

It would be more accurate to say that they indicate the amount of spare cash that the CoJCoLDS has to spend on what are essentially vanity projects.

That is obviously going to be what you would say.

Members of the church who are endowed and active in the faith see these very same buildings as literally being Houses of the Lord. Earthly sanctuaries that enable the work of the Lord to go on inside of sacred spaces.

That work is the work of the eternities. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 9?lang=eng

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Yes/no…but not really. In other words I took the position that the Book of Abraham was a translation from papyri but it was somewhat of a mishmash in the sense that some of the papyri may have been missing and we of course have issues with the facsimilies. We have a scripture that was printed in serial form and then later canonized after years had gone by. The provenance chain (the place where it begins, where it springs into being…all of the moving parts) from mummies to canonization in SL is a long and somewhat convoluted one.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there are some individual issues that came packed in with an overall scriptural tome which was produced as a midrashic composition. The Book of Abraham as a whole is canonized scripture with scriptural authority and importance to LDS doctrine but there could be midrashic elements that slipped through the canonization processes which are problematical but to the average Latter Day Saint don’t make any difference. But at the same time those elements may be inspired/revelatory as they teach truths in regards to Abraham’s experiences and doctrinal teachings.

A mixed bag.

Now if I was to find out that the facsimilies aren’t a problem at all, that would be awesome. But I recognize the controversial nature of the Book of Abraham project and am willing to shelve those things that I haven’t seen scholars resolve for a fact. The reason is that I see revelation and the ancient world through the doctrines taught in the Book of Abraham. They ring true to me. Yes, some of those doctrines/ideas were being tossed around at the time of Joseph Smith BUT they had not been disseminated to mankind in scriptural form. The Book of Abraham and the voice of the ancients put those doctrines front and center for our age/time.

Another template of sorts to get ‘true doctrine’ out there. I like templates/scaffolding to project ideas and truths. Those templates/scaffoldings exist in the real world without having to come up with them whole cloth. That’s another thing that is a testimony of the restoration to me. Much of what Joseph taught was already here but it was scattered all over the place and needed to be organized and put into scriptural form with divine authority and stamp of approval.

I don’t expect that the Book of Abraham would be decanonized. Why? Because of the overall bearing it has as revealed scripture. Which I’m not at odds with at all.

As far as it is translated correctly.



I do think that there is more openness to ‘variations on the theme’ as long as one sees the composer as being proficient in their creation of the magnum opus as a whole.

After all, it is apparent, at least to me, that God DOES work in mysterious ways his works and wonders to perform. In regards to the Book of Abraham I don’t think the whole story of its creation from start to finish (and it wasn’t actually finished if I remember correctly) is known and/or is a done deal.

The Book of Abraham is the little brother to the Book of Mormon, in a sense. If the Book of Mormon is ‘true’, which I believe enough evidence supports, then it is wise to cut the Book of Abraham some slack and be patient and willing to stick with what is known and be willing to wait for further light and knowledge to come forth in regards to issues related to some of the facsimilies, etc.

I am fully supportive of the work John Gee, Kerry Mulestein and others have done with the Book of Abraham. They are men of faith and testimony in the restoration. I am prone to go generally in their direction rather than in the direction of those that have apostatized from the church and left EVERYTHING behind.

Given away their birthright, so to speak.

I’ll leave it at that.

Regards,
MG

My good faith question elicited a jeremiad.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/jeremiad

I fail to see where your response has any direct meaning/connection in response to my post.

But thanks for responding anyway, Morley.

Such as it was/is.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

if we discovered proof that Joseph Smith was sleeping with young boys, would that be the deal breaker?…Or, what if we had a confession letter from Joseph Smith, admitting that he made it up so as to bring about innovations to a fallen christianity? Would that change your mind about its truthfulness?

I don’t expect that either one of these will happen.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

I’ll put it another way, how would you tell the difference between a church that worships mamon (money) and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Their works/fruits.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church.

Regards,
MG

This bears repeating, and you are correct:

It is the temples, stupid.

I’ve repeatedly said this in this thread, seemingly to no avail. Maybe folks will ‘get it’ now.

Regards,
MG

[drumdude]

I’ll put it another way, how would you tell the difference between a church that worships mamon (money) and the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Their works/fruits.

Regards,
MG

Good start, and something we can objectively measure. So, how does the LDS church stack up against other charities in the world? Have you investigated this at all?

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Earthly sanctuaries that enable the work of the Lord to go on inside of sacred spaces.

That work is the work of the eternities. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
MG

[Chap]

Temples and the number of locations now throughout the world demonstrate the beauty that followers of Christ see in the gospel plan of happiness. Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

Temples indicate the health and vitality of the church

It would be more accurate to say that they indicate the amount of spare cash that the CoJCoLDS has to spend on what are essentially vanity projects.

Numbers of converts may fluctuate while numbers of temples increase.

People appear to be slipping away from the church in unprecedented numbers, but look at all the temples ...

That is obviously going to be what you would say.

Gosh, how did you read my mind?

Hmm ... an organisation with immense piles of cash, but membership retention problems, building lots of large expensive buildings ... how could that point towards the view I expressed?

Members of the church who are endowed and active in the faith see these very same buildings as literally being Houses of the Lord. Earthly sanctuaries that enable the work of the Lord to go on inside of sacred spaces.

That work is the work of the eternities. To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Yup. The creator of the vast universe full of countless galaxies, each with uncountable suns and planets ... he just can't do his stuff unless the tiny creatures on one little planet build special buildings, put on particular clothes, and do special stuff. It's quite reasonable, really.

[MG 2.0]

Their works/fruits.

Regards,
MG

Good start, and something we can objectively measure. So, how does the LDS church stack up against other charities in the world? Have you investigated this at all?

I’m referring to the fourfold mission of the church. You are focusing on one of those missions to the exclusion of the others.

https://www.mormonwiki.com/Four-fold_Mi ... the_Church

Par for the course.

Step back, look at the whole canvas.

Regards,
MG