If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

But then we come back to what I’ve been pounding in throughout this thread. Why would Joseph and others go through so much trouble for just “anything” as you say. Would it not make more sense that they would go through all that they did after the plates were retrieved if they were indeed real and had great value?

No, not at all. Going through that 'trouble' would be exactly what cons would do.

Posted and commented on earlier in thread:

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... ntext=jbms

I’m happy to let others decide if this was part of a con.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Once again mental just says stuff.

I can’t help it if you are unable to understand. That’s on you. I won’t, however, accuse you of having a low IQ.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

I'm not sure that it would. I mean, which of the Lord's commandments would you disregard if the plates were still around?

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith. The gospel teaches that we are separated from God and the things of eternity by a veil.

If we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will…that would put a monkey wrench into this thing we call Faith.

As it is, we are left to choose to believe and obey based upon incomplete information and knowledge.

It’s a bitch, right?

Regards,
MG

I think your version of faith is warped. We have translations of the Bible on shelves of every University. I have heard no reason to think that has injured the possibility of faith for people. If the Book of Mormon was based upon real history people could still have faith in what is true and good or they could turn away to greed and manipulating people which is the everpresent possibility of unfaith.

It has been explained over and over again that a prop can have great value. The fact that Joseph treated his plates as valuable does not demonstrate they are thousand year old historical records.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Once again mental just says stuff.

I can’t help it if you are unable to understand. That’s on you. I won’t, however, accuse you of having a low IQ.

Regards,
MG

[huckelberry]

It would do something for your faith which is severely lacking, wouldn’t it? Oh wait, then it wouldn’t be faith, it would be knowledge.

Knowledge vs. faith. A whole other topic that could be discussed.

Regards,
MG

True faith grows upon knowledge and understanding.
false faith grows on ignorance.

[Doctor Scratch]

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith.

Oh, you’d still need to exercise plenty of faith. For starters, you’d have questions about the authenticity of the plates. Remember that ancient American peoples did not have the kind of metallurgy required to even make a golden three-ring binder. So, if we had actual plates, are they a hoax, ala Kinderhook? Meanwhile, what language is on the plates? That would raise lots of questions as well. And are we assuming that the *information* in the plates is true—that the translation is accurate? If so, that raises even more questions—such as, are we meant to think that the Jaredite barges were real or metaphorical?

If we had the actual plates, you would still need to confront all of these questions and all of them would be challenges to your faith.

Remember: According to LDS theology, *all* of us, except the Sons of Perdition, will go to heaven. Why, in your view, is it worth paying 10% of your income for life, along with countless hours of your time, in order to go to the CK rather than one of the “lesser” kingdoms? I’ve never seen a believer give a forthright answer to that question, though presumably you think you’re getting something out of the transaction.

[huckelberry]

Marcus, I think we all may be stuck thinking that I see no evidence of plates written by a native over a thousand years ago which translates into the Book of Mormon. MG says there is clear evidence of something heavy in a bag which a few people were shown and said it looked like plates. Two sides talking about two different things.

I am puzzled if there was a change in story telling or is my memory bent. My memory says in seminary and church in general the story I heard was rock in hat and the words miraculously appeared on the stone. I do not remember much of any alternative picture though rock spectacles were mentioned. Perhaps I thought that urim and tummen (sp?) too weird so my memory stuck with the rock in hat as much more practical.

Yet I hear people repeatedly claiming shock about the hat thing as if that story got hidden. Is that some sort of Benson thing. Rock in hat sound leftish? Whatever happened to that nice rock in a hat story?,(with plates angels and ritualized requirements inorder to come into possession of the plates) Good enough theater either way to get people involved.

I thought i was younger than you but now i think maybe i am not! No, i did not hear about the rock in the hat in high school Seminary, nor in any of my three years at BYU. Only plates, angels, and translation was pushed in my Mormon-era classes.

I am aware of the rock in the hat now, but it was not taught as facilitating translation when i was young.

Marcus, my seminary experience was mid 1960s. I am starting to think that the variety of what people heard in class might not be a matter of what time period but who was teaching the class. It is also possible that the rock in the hat has stuck in my memory because I then found it a more sensible image. It seems a lot of people react with the opposite view.

[MG 2.0]

It would do something for your faith which is severely lacking, wouldn’t it? Oh wait, then it wouldn’t be faith, it would be knowledge.

Knowledge vs. faith. A whole other topic that could be discussed.

Regards,
MG

True faith grows upon knowledge and understanding.
false faith grows on ignorance.

Understood. That’s the whole point of Alma 32.

I think there is a qualitative difference between comparing the Bible manuscripts compiled a couple of thousand years ago (New Testament), and much longer than that for the Old Testament, and the plates used for the translation of the Book of Mormon. That was only a couple of hundred years ago. Ancient manuscripts vs. plates that would be available as ‘hard evidence’ of the possibility of angels and God having direct dealings with mankind through modern prophets is a whole other story.

That’s REAL close to us.

Recent evidence of God’s interaction with mankind available as a ‘hard copy’ would be a game changer as far as faith goes. We would be living in a state of pure knowledge vs. faith.

That changes things. And like I said, that’s a whole other discussion…but a critical one.

Impacting the Plan of Salvation and such.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

But then we come back to what I’ve been pounding in throughout this thread. Why would Joseph and others go through so much trouble for just “anything” as you say. Would it not make more sense that they would go through all that they did after the plates were retrieved if they were indeed real and had great value?

You seem to be saying Emma was rustling through something not entirely real…partly visionary…or that they were a prop of little or no real value. Not worth taking precautions against, etc.

Regards,
MG

I'm pointing out the obvious: we don't know that Emma was rustling through.

While talking about the myth of the plates, I made an allusion "supernatural intervention to keep them safe" as part of the trouble you speak of. Mixed in with the stories you've been posting are stories where the plates could magically disappear from one location to magically be waiting for Joseph at another location. Unfortunately, I've been trying to work on another project and haven't had the time dig up specific references, but I'm pretty sure you can find examples of these stories in volume one of Dan Vogel's Early Mormon Documents. This gives us a mash of stories where sometimes the plates seem physical, and sometimes not. Taken as a whole and speaking as a historical matter, we cannot be entirely certain what kind of reality the plates were. History is a messy business where one often has to deal with inconsistent and even contradictory material.

Regardless of where one stands on the prophet/fraud dichotomy (sigh), Joseph had every incentive to go through so much trouble. A number of sources agree that once it was known he had the plates, there were a number of efforts to purloin them from Joseph. Read your own links for details. If the plates were (physically) real and had real value, that's its own incentive. If they were fake, then the incentive for Joseph would have been not to have the fraud revealed. If they were something else altogether--perhaps without the participants not realizing their "true" nature--then they would act to protect the plates simply because they did think they were of great value.

[Gadianton]

We have the historical record and the narrative surrounding the plates which I have already described and pointed to links that have witness testimony first hand as to the veracity of the plate

I'm not so sure about that, MG. Can you provide an example of a witness who gave a straightforward account of viewing the plates? I'll see if I can find the thread, but I looked into it a few years ago and posted on the topic -- I was shocked about just how off-the-wall the witness incidents were. Such as, the plates are setting on a kitchen table with a cloth over them, but Joseph Smith didn't just pull the cloth and show them, instead, somehow they all end up in the forest and an angel is revealing them in a vision. (my memory may be fuzzy here)

This is CRUCIALLY important given the argument you're reciting from Bushman.

Remember how I agreed with you and Bushman that the average member needs the reality of the plates and a fictional (the liberal version) Book of Mormon won't do? These same folks are nonplussed when they learn that the witness testimonies aren't straight-forward eye-witness accounts. Stephen Greer directing a UFO 10 feet over his camp would be like Joseph Smith pulling the cloth off that mound of something and lo -- it's gold plates. Stephen Greer leading a group in meditation where everyone spiritually communicates with the aliens is the equivalent of Joseph Smith leading his friends through the forest when the plates are stowed away at home and an angel appears in a vision with the plates.