If plates then God

[Philo Sofee]

MG2.0
I very much doubt that God would want us to sit idly by and not do what we can to alleviate suffering.

He set the example, how can we possibly be blamed if he does nothing about it? SHOW US HOW ITS DONE HERE AND NOW GOD.

[Philo Sofee]

MG2.0
God smiles upon those that help and serve His little ones. Jesus taught by example.

So why did he quit in our day with the current spate of child abusing church leaders?! So much for being the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I think your theology is so myopic as to become heinous MG. And you run from the consequences of the evil it produces. That is not all so impressive if you are trying to impress us with the Mormon theology.

[MG 2.0]

In many cases, yes. Unless we as societies and individuals can make a difference. That’s why I chose teaching as a career. I’m sure you and others here have done your part throughout your lives to lessen the amount of suffering in whatever way you can/could. I very much doubt that God would want us to sit idly by and not do what we can to alleviate suffering. That’s what the church and gospel is all about. I am appreciative of my opportunities to serve in a small way in my ward.



Jesus has made that promise. It is through Him that ALL can have hope.



As I’ve said there are ALL kinds of ways to alleviate suffering and serve. Get out and do it if you’re not already. Here’s one place to start to just get your feet wet.

https://www.justserve.org/

Of course if you feel qualified to help at a deeper level with severe issues such as child rape, abuse, etc., then do that. It takes a special person to really get into the trenches.

God smiles upon those that help and serve His little ones. Jesus taught by example.

Regards,
MG

Yep, it’s just like buying carbon offsets. Choose the right career or volunteer at the food bank, and you’ve offset the fact that you’ve assured your salvation at the cost of the broken bodies of children.

The Apostle Paul taught that we work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. We are responsible for ourselves and those that we love and serve.

The thing is, Res Ipsa, either one of us could have potentially taken a different path and been the CAUSE of these broken bodies you are referring to. But for the grace of God and our own nature, we didn’t.

But others DID. And they are the cause of these broken bodies and all other sorts of mayhem in the world. It’s always been that way and it always will be until there is an outside entity or force that says enough is enough.

That same entity will save and redeem ALL of those that have been harmed or abused through the agency of man.

Think about it. You and I could have been the abusers if things had been different. Would you not want to have the opportunity to repent? Would you not want there to be a ways and means by which those children that YOU potentially could have molested or abused to have a way back? If not in this life, in the next?

It’s easy for you to criticize. I get that. The world is and always has been a wicked place. But honestly, the only reason we’re having this discussions rather than avoiding it is because we are talking from a position of innocence.

But what if we weren’t?

We’re living in a world that is real. You and I make choices in a real world. We could make bad, in fact, terrible choices. Some do and have. But we’re all in it together. You have not been able to come up with a plan for a better world than the one we already live in.

And you CANNOT do so.

Man, the more and more I think about it, I’m grateful for the atonement of Jesus Christ. 🥲

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

MG2.0
God smiles upon those that help and serve His little ones. Jesus taught by example.

So why did he quit in our day with the current spate of child abusing church leaders?! So much for being the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I think your theology is so myopic as to become heinous MG. And you run from the consequences of the evil it produces. That is not all so impressive if you are trying to impress us with the Mormon theology.

I honestly you don’t think you’ve carefully read everything I’ve written in this thread or you could not HONESTLY say that.

Mormon theology is wide and expansive. You of all people should know that.

At times leaders have been myopic. I’m with you on that. But then again, we all fall prey to the same myopia that our fellow human beings do.

I guess I cut people a bit more slack than you might.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Lol. No, you have not expressed that at all. You've said many extremely mean-spirited things.

In this thread I earlier expressed these sentiments to Res Ipsa. If you’d like me to take them back in your case for whatever reason, I will. Let me know. Otherwise my sentiments stand as being my thoughts towards you and others...

No they don't. Your mean-spirited stereotypes run throughout this thread and every other one you participate in. As they have for many, many years.

[Marcus]

Is that a new opinion on your part? Because your comments are on record are that you are okay with your god allowing abusers to be calld as church leaders where they have the opportunity to continue abusing, just so they can be caught, repent, and be forgiven. It's a disgusting take.

False.

Regards,
MG

Your words:

God had obviously already taken this man's pedophilia history into account prior to sending that special witness to the Bishop.

...if he was called through inspiration, it might be that God...knowing the end from the beginning...knew how things were going to pan out. And the fact is, this man now has been brought to justice and also has an opportunity to repent. Not to say that there hasn't been damage done along the way.

[Marcus]

The thing is, Res Ipsa, either one of us could have potentially taken a different path and been the CAUSE of these broken bodies you are referring to. But for the grace of God and our own nature, we didn’t.

But others DID. And they are the cause of these broken bodies and all other sorts of mayhem in the world. It’s always been that way and it always will be until there is an outside entity or force that says enough is enough.

That same entity will save and redeem ALL of those that have been harmed or abused through the agency of man.

Think about it. You and I could have been the abusers if things had been different. Would you not want to have the opportunity to repent? Would you not want there to be a ways and means by which those children that YOU potentially could have molested or abused to have a way back? If not in this life, in the next?

It’s easy for you to criticize. I get that. The world is and always has been a wicked place. But honestly, the only reason we’re having this discussions rather than avoiding it is because we are talking from a position of innocence.

But what if we weren’t?

We’re living in a world that is real. You and I make choices in a real world. We could make bad, in fact, terrible choices. Some do and have. But we’re all in it together. You have not been able to come up with a plan for a better world than the one we already live in....

Nonsense.

Christ’s Atonement is Infinite and eternal. The sufferings of all of God’s children due to the wickedness of men will be compensated for and healed. One has to remember that this life is not all there is and that the sufferings and trials of this life are a small part of eternity. There will be a judgement. Those that are guilty of heinous crimes against humanity will also be compensated with appropriate consequences for their actions.

Your appeal to the atonement is a non-sequitur. Take any of the significant number of children before the age of accountability who literally cannot sin who are beaten or raped to death. The atonement does nothing for them. They are sinless and get a ticket straight to the CK. So, the atonement is not any sort of compensation for them. Yet, your loving God intentionally sent them to earth and chose to place them in a time and place in which he knew that they would be beaten, raped, and tortured to death.

And, unless you are willing to claim that there is a single soul who would live a perfect life if they could not beat, rape, or torture children, there is no need for the innocent to suffer at all. Those who would engage in this conduct will still sin, they will still need to be redeemed, and the atonement will still be necessary. Yet, your God deliberately places these innocent souls into times and places where he knows they will be beaten, raped, tortured and killed.

Your answer, though you lack the courage to face the consequences of what you say you choose to believe, is for some reason that you don't even attempt to articulate, this deliberate infliction of pain and suffering on innocents is somehow moral because of a future reward that the innocents don't need.

If you believe that this life is all there is, then yes, things appear…and are…a real mess when it comes to the atrocities committed by free agents upon the innocent.

War and mayhem and cruel disease and sickness have been and will always be a part of this natural world.

Hold on there. I'm the guy who believes in a "natural world." You believe in an intentionally created world by a being so powerful that he can twiddle the knobs of the fundamental variables that make the world -- in fact the entire universe -- possible. It's a world created specifically as part of the plan that includes your God knowingly subjecting innocents to rape, beatings, torture, and death.

Your God created it all. Anthrax, guinea worm, yersinia pestis, etc. And he created them all knowing the consequences. He deliberately created ever single disease knowing when it did it what the consequences would be to his children. Because otherwise it would be too easy to believe in God, right? Each and every source of torment and suffering was necessary for this good, kind, and loving parent.

The power of Jesus’s atonement is the only mitigating factor that can make everything right in the long run.

So you say. But your statement is false in the case of those who die before the age of accountability.

Secularism does not give any hope to the powerless and innocent in the face of evil.

I never claimed it did. You're off on a tangent now. Mormonism gives no hope to the young innocents who spend their short lives being beaten, raped and tortured, largely by the people who are supposed to love and protect them. "I'm really sorry that you have to be beaten to death as a child but, trust me, it's a comparatively short period of time and it's necessary that we give your tormentor the chance to commit this specific sin -- otherwise he'll have nothing to repent of and some other adult's suffering and torment will have been a complete waste." You think that's a source of hope and comfort to the six year old whose father violates her with a broomstick handle every few days?

Oh, wait. You mean it gives hope to you. Well, that makes it okay.

As I think I’ve already said, God knows full well that this is a fallen world. A natural world where there are real world consequences for the actions that people make…both the good and the bad.

Your God knows this is a "fallen world" because he created it. Jesus our brother, kind and good, devised a plan that required a fallen world. There was nothing "natural" about it. God started with a plan that you voted for and went to war to make sure it was implemented. The creation if the world as it exists was according to the plan. The fall was according to the plan. Your God isn't some helpless bystander. It is all his plan. He created it all.

That’s VERY difficult for some people to accept especially if they have no hope of God’s love and and Christ’s mercy in the eternal scheme of things.

You don't have the faintest idea why people find "that" very hard to accept. I don't accept your religious claims because they are, at bottom, both irrational and morally bankrupt.

God is not at fault for the actions and choices that evil people make. But he will judge them accordingly and all will be made right.

So you say. Your God is just as responsible for his intentional placing of innocent souls into specific circumstances where he knew they would be raped and beaten as Bin Laden was responsible for adopting and implementing a plan that took down the towers. It's his plan, and he executed that plan with full knowledge of the consequences. That the child abuser didn't know in advance that he would beat and rape the child and so has the experience of free will, does not lessen the responsibility of your God, who exercised his own agency to send the innocent into harm's way, knowing the specific harm that would result. If you leave your child with a babysitter with absolute knowledge that your babysitter will rape, beat, and kill your child, you don't get off the hook for your decision to leave the child with the babysitter in the first place.

There is a matter of trust involved. Do we and can we trust in God’s plan which involves free agency and that all will be made right through Christ’s Infinite Atonement?

I don't trust anyone who would deliberately subject innocent children to beatings, rape and torture and then disclaim all responsibility for the resulting harm. And I don't trust anyone who tries to convince me that this is all morally acceptable because reasons.

As it is, you have failed to come up with a plan/schema for a better world in which there is no evil. You are essentially left in a position of no hope. You cannot stop the evil. It will always exist in the hearts of some men/women.

This is where your reasoning goes completely off the rails. It's a 100% non-sequitur. My entire argument is counterargument to yours. I have no obligation to help you improve your argument. It's you who is making claims about your God's plan of salvation. I don't believe that your God, let alone your plan of salvation, is real. I see no reason at all to believe that there is a plan. So it's completely off the rails for you to demand that I present you with a plan that I don't believe exists for a God that I don't believe exists. The question itself is a risable attempt to change the subject and avoid taking about the horrific aspects of what you, as you put it, choose to believe.

Does it suck to believe that there's no plan -- no one driving this bus? Sometimes. What sucks worse is to believe there is a plan that necessarily causes children to be raped, beaten and tortured. Morally bankrupt.

God and his Son are the only one’s that have planned for and created a plan by which all we compensated and rewarded according to their works in the flesh. Some are blessed with the faith to know and/or believe that this is so. That faith cannot be forced. It is a choice.

As is the belief in the plates and the angel that are part of the restoration narrative.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Yep, it’s just like buying carbon offsets. Choose the right career or volunteer at the food bank, and you’ve offset the fact that you’ve assured your salvation at the cost of the broken bodies of children.

The Apostle Paul taught that we work out our own salvation in fear and trembling. We are responsible for ourselves and those that we love and serve.

The thing is, Res Ipsa, either one of us could have potentially taken a different path and been the CAUSE of these broken bodies you are referring to. But for the grace of God and our own nature, we didn’t.

But others DID. And they are the cause of these broken bodies and all other sorts of mayhem in the world. It’s always been that way and it always will be until there is an outside entity or force that says enough is enough.

That same entity will save and redeem ALL of those that have been harmed or abused through the agency of man.

Think about it. You and I could have been the abusers if things had been different. Would you not want to have the opportunity to repent? Would you not want there to be a ways and means by which those children that YOU potentially could have molested or abused to have a way back? If not in this life, in the next?

It’s easy for you to criticize. I get that. The world is and always has been a wicked place. But honestly, the only reason we’re having this discussions rather than avoiding it is because we are talking from a position of innocence.

But what if we weren’t?

We’re living in a world that is real. You and I make choices in a real world. We could make bad, in fact, terrible choices. Some do and have. But we’re all in it together. You have not been able to come up with a plan for a better world than the one we already live in.

And you CANNOT do so.

Man, the more and more I think about it, I’m grateful for the atonement of Jesus Christ. 🥲

Regards,
MG

You meet a man. The man says he is God. He says he is all knowing, all powerful, and all good. He says he is your father, and that he loves you very much. He wants you to live with him forever, but there’s a catch. You have to earn it.

1. God offers you a deal: exaltation as defined in Mormonism. You get the highest degree of the highest kingdom, your eternal family, progression to good status. But you don’t get it for free. You have to fulfill some requirements. One of those requirements is to beat a three year old child to death with a hammer. If you don’t, the child gets the same reward you’ve been offered. If you do, the child gets the same reward you’ve been offered. But to get your reward, you must beat the three year old to death.

Do you take the deal? Why or why not?

2. God offers you a deal. It’s the same deal as in paragraph 1, except that, if you accept, God will beat the child to death.

Do you take the deal? Why or why not?

3. God offers you a deal. It’s the same deal as number 2, but God will take the child to my house. God assures you that he can see the future and that it is 100% certain that I will beat the child to death with a hammer.

Do you take the deal? Why or why not?

4. God offers you a deal. It’s the same deal as number 3, except God tells you he is offering the same deal to everyone and the child will be beaten to death if anyone accepts. God assures you with 100% certainty that I will accept the deal.

Do you take the deal? Why or why not?

5. God says this was a test. Did you pass? Why or why not?

[huckelberry]

But alas, that is not to be. And possibly for very good reason.

Regards,
MG

I invoke Hitchins Razor
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

What Hitchin dismisses is his business and places no obligation upon me.

[Philo Sofee]

So why did he quit in our day with the current spate of child abusing church leaders?! So much for being the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I think your theology is so myopic as to become heinous MG. And you run from the consequences of the evil it produces. That is not all so impressive if you are trying to impress us with the Mormon theology.

I honestly you don’t think you’ve carefully read everything I’ve written in this thread or you could not HONESTLY say that.

Mormon theology is wide and expansive. You of all people should know that.

At times leaders have been myopic. I’m with you on that. But then again, we all fall prey to the same myopia that our fellow human beings do.

I guess I cut people a bit more slack than you might.

Regards,
MG

When they claim they have God guiding them, there is no slack. You of all people should grasp that simple fact.