If plates then God

[Jersey Girl]

Please list 5 types of needless suffering that could be prevented if only God would step in.

1.Child rape
2. child torture
3. child starvation to death
4. child slavery
5. child beating and almost bleeding to death

to name just a few of thousands of themes with all walks of people of any age.

Thank you. Let me ask you two related questions in response.

1. How would you like to see God step in?
2. How could humans step in?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I wish you well with long COVID, Doc. I have coworkers (4 out 13) who had COVID early on and still deal with its effects, and none of them with the same effects.

Thanks, DD and MN. One of our good friend’s husband works in the trades, and she said he’s been dealing with long covid for a year and it’s taken a huge toll on him. He’s one of those self-made genius house flipper and builder guys, super talented, but can’t garner the energy to do much of anything. When I heard that, I was just fresh off a serious multiple health issue thing (covid being just one of them), and it was like a punch to the gut. I thought, “Holy crap, am I gonna be feeling like this for a year?!?”

I’m like gassed all. the. time. All the time. All of it. Sucks.

The upside is I have a jacuzzi now and fml I’ve been missing out. In fact, I think Imma go sit in it now.

- Doc

[Jersey Girl]

Oh and Cam. After I put you on ignore I went in the kitchen and shredded a gigantic zucchini with my salad shooter and every one of those zucchini pieces had your name on it when I shoved them through the shooter. So not to worry. I got 6 cups of shredded Cam zucchini. 4 cups in the freezer and two loaves of zucchini bread just came out of the oven.

[MG 2.0]

Twice in this thread I’m calling you out on the same thing. I have never said that men are called to leadership positions on the basis so that they will later be caught abusing children.

That’s a gross misrepresentation of anything I’ve said.

You behave despicably at times.

If you folks are done talking about the plates and don’t have anything more to add I think we may be approaching the end of the discussion. Ya’ think?

I think I’ve made myself fairly clear in regards to the thoughts I’ve had to the importance the plates played in the restoration and the importance that free will plays as a part of belief. Others have pressed the necessity/importance in their mind of having the plates come forward as evidence so as to more easily believe and have no doubts, etc.

That about wraps it up. Unless folks feel like they need to continue beating a dead horse, so to speak.

It was an enlightening conversation.

Regards,
MG

You're the one who brought God into this, and Jesus Christ and his infinite atonement, and whatnot. Now that that has been shown to be equally as impossibly ludicrous as the plates, and you can't refute the logic against the added theology you wish to brainwash people with, you bow out.

What else do you want to beat the dead horse with at this point? Make it worth while. I’ve been answering and asking questions for many a page now on this thread.

I get it, I really do. I used to do the exact same thing in the exact same boat you are in. The bad news, the boat is sinking and there is no repair kit.

Three hundred plus temples and counting. When I served my mission I think there were around eighteen. The church has progressed to the point where this is even possible. Bringing the blessings of eternity to more and more areas of the globe is awesome. It’s amazing when you think about it. If someone would have told me when on my mission that not that far down the road there would be over three hundred temples I would have said, yeah, right.

Back in the day you probably would have reacted similarly.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Twice in this thread I’m calling you out on the same thing. I have never said that men are called to leadership positions on the basis so that they will later be caught abusing children.

That’s a gross misrepresentation of anything I’ve said.

You behave despicably at times.

And every time i've posted your very own words where you said exactly that:
"Member of local Bishopric jailed on sex abuse charges"

He may have. He may not have. If he did, then it goes to show...and not for the first time in history... that God calls upon the weak things of the world in order to accomplish His purposes. If, as the first article seems to be saying, the fellow may not have been in the Bishopric at the time of his misbehavior then it might be that the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. As long, of course, as he hasn't been misbehaving in the meantime. It's hard to know all of the variables/factors involved. The fact is, it's good that he was caught and that he now has a chance to repent of his past misbehaviors. [/i][/b]



That's a possibility, if indeed the counselor was called through direct inspiration/revelation. That doesn't always happen, I would guess.
But again, if he was called through inspiration, it might be that God...knowing the end from the beginning...knew how things were going to pan out. And the fact is, this man now has been brought to justice and also has an opportunity to repent. Not to say that there hasn't been damage done along the way...

[Bolding added]

That's you, mentalgymnast, saying that "the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. "

That's disgusting. And "despicable" is exactly the description you deserve.

You made yet another accusation, mentalg, even though i've responded several times, so here's the proof again. Either explain yourself, or stop making accusations.

[MG 2.0]

Twice in this thread I’m calling you out on the same thing. I have never said that men are called to leadership positions on the basis so that they will later be caught abusing children.

That’s a gross misrepresentation of anything I’ve said.

You behave despicably at times.

And every time i've posted your very own words where you said exactly that:
"Member of local Bishopric jailed on sex abuse charges"

He may have. He may not have. If he did, then it goes to show...and not for the first time in history... that God calls upon the weak things of the world in order to accomplish His purposes. If, as the first article seems to be saying, the fellow may not have been in the Bishopric at the time of his misbehavior then it might be that the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. As long, of course, as he hasn't been misbehaving in the meantime. It's hard to know all of the variables/factors involved. The fact is, it's good that he was caught and that he now has a chance to repent of his past misbehaviors. [/i][/b]



That's a possibility, if indeed the counselor was called through direct inspiration/revelation. That doesn't always happen, I would guess.
But again, if he was called through inspiration, it might be that God...knowing the end from the beginning...knew how things were going to pan out. And the fact is, this man now has been brought to justice and also has an opportunity to repent. Not to say that there hasn't been damage done along the way...

[Bolding added]

That's you, mentalgymnast, saying that "the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. "

That's disgusting. And "despicable" is exactly the description you deserve.

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

If anything I should have said, “could pan out” rather than “were going to pan out”. How inspiration and God knowing all things and free will dovetail together is a great question. And I honestly don’t have a clue how it does. What I so believe is that God has back up plans for situations where those in positions of authority blow it.

That was even true with Joseph Smith the prophet.

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

Only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for allowing me to rephrase my position. An example of speaking too fast without thinking things through completely. Ever done that? If not, you’re a better person than me.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

The plates as Smith described them are a con.

And you, of course, are free to say and believe that.

Regards,
MG

[Res Ipsa]

Edit -> this is to Marcus’ post above the one above:

And worse. What about all the men (and I suppose a few women, relatively speaking) that got away with it all their lives? Yes yes, I know. God’ll get ‘em in the hereafter. -_-

Jersey Girl, I read your posts, but I didn’t want to respond because you’re not feeling well, and I didn’t want to bother your health with a potentially hostile or adversarial comment. I hope you’re feeling better- as an aside long covid has me in its grips; I’m totally wiped.

- Doc

Damn, Doc, I've heard long Covid is no fun, especially being wiped out. I'm hoping you got the short long Covid.

[MG 2.0]

On the other hand if there is a God that created all, then all these things, both the good and the bad, are a compound in one. They are part of one grand plan which ultimately brings about the saving of souls and the redemption of ALL of mankind through the gifts and merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yet another contradiction. I'm not interested in the problem of evil discussion going on in this thread, however, I have to say you've got a heck of a double standard. On the one hand, it doesn't matter how much evil happens in the world -- bring it on…

I think it does matter. Jesus’s atonement covers everything but at the same time we have God saying that he has a very low threshold for sin. And that if we don’t repent WE become responsible and have to somehow make amends without the benefit of the atonement. At least that’s the way I understand it. There is no place in the scriptures where ‘bring on sin and wickedness’ is taught that I know of.

…a thousand billion children could starve to death and it shouldn't damage any person's faith whatsoever because God has it worked out. That's all we need to know.

You may have observed that the church is very active in relief efforts around the world. The church…and other good people…are in the business of staving off starvation wherever possible. We live in a world of nature where catastrophic things happen. When they do, we step in and help. Jesus’s atonement kicks in, you might say, where the works of men are insufficient. Death due to disease or mayhem would be one of those times.

It’s a matter of not only trusting God but literally providing helping hands where possible.

Unfortunately some folks that don’t have some kind of spiritual backbone give up on the world and say “To heck with it”, because it’s all “absurd”…a word that’s been used on this thread.

But why doesn't the same logic work for the plates? Why do we absolutely need plates?

Well, we wouldn’t if there hadn’t been a claim to translate ‘them’ by the gift and power of God. But the fact is, a claim WAS made for actual plates. I’ve spoken at length about this throughout the thread.

…a billion children suffering, we can swallow that without skipping a beat, but a restoration without plates?! Heresy!

I don’t think God or most good hearted men and women look at it that way.

Regards,
MG

[msnobody]

Oh and Cam. After I put you on ignore I went in the kitchen and shredded a gigantic zucchini with my salad shooter and every one of those zucchini pieces had your name on it when I shoved them through the shooter. So not to worry. I got 6 cups of shredded Cam zucchini. 4 cups in the freezer and two loaves of zucchini bread just came out of the oven.

See there is a God holding back evil to some extent, Doc, or else Jersey would have shredded your behind.

I forgot to mention this, but I just learned that there is a lady at church with long COVID who can barely function. Like she can only stand for like five minutes at a time.