If plates then God

[Marcus]

And every time i've posted your very own words where you said exactly that:
"Member of local Bishopric jailed on sex abuse charges"

[Bolding added]

That's you, mentalgymnast, saying that "the calling brought him to a position/place of being 'outed'. That's a good thing. "

That's disgusting. And "despicable" is exactly the description you deserve.

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

If anything I should have said, “could pan out” rather than “were going to pan out”. How inspiration and God knowing all things and free will dovetail together is a great question. And I honestly don’t have a clue how it does. What I so believe is that God has back up plans for situations where those in positions of authority blow it.

That was even true with Joseph Smith the prophet.

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

Only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for allowing me to rephrase my position. An example of speaking too fast without thinking things through completely. Ever done that? If not, you’re a better person than me.

Regards,
MG

You've got to be kidding:

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

And not one word about the victims sacrificed, the ones who actually "pay the uttermost farthing" so that the sinners can repent. You are not getting the point at all.

[MG 2.0]

If a police officer catches a would-be child abuser just before he hurts a child, is that officer frustrating god's will? and should he repent?

Just one example, of course.

No. He is saving a child from harm. Definitely not frustrating God’s will.

Common sense, right?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

God would have instituted failsafes in the possibility that individuals are going to blow it in a plan/system where free choice is the rule. The fact is, if you look at history there have been a lot of people that have blown it and played a part in ruining lives. God knew that would happen when letting free agents be called to leadership positions whether in the church(s), in communities, scouts, families, and what have you.

If anything I should have said, “could pan out” rather than “were going to pan out”. How inspiration and God knowing all things and free will dovetail together is a great question. And I honestly don’t have a clue how it does. What I so believe is that God has back up plans for situations where those in positions of authority blow it.

That was even true with Joseph Smith the prophet.

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

Only because of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for allowing me to rephrase my position. An example of speaking too fast without thinking things through completely. Ever done that? If not, you’re a better person than me.

Regards,
MG

You've got to be kidding:

But the fact is, when people do blow it from small things even up to those things that are horrendous, they have an opportunity to repent. They may have to pay the uttermost farthing, but they can repent.

And not one word about the victims sacrificed, the ones who actually "pay the uttermost farthing" so that the sinners can repent. You are not getting the point at all.

No I’m not kidding and I think I do have some concept of the suffering that innocents go through.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

You have the arrogance to speak for God as to which, if any, of the pieces and consequences of the plan of salvation are necessary to bring about its goals.

A quick answer to this. No, I don’t speak for God, but I believe there are those that do.

And I don’t count them as being arrogant.

Regards,
MG

[tagriffy]

And yet that “Satan plan” is the the one that is being promoted by individuals on this thread, if I’m not mistaken. If the plates were accessible for all to see and understand as being evidence of God. If children were somehow free from any harm or abuse through absolute force from the ‘good guys’. In other words, a god of this world that required no faith, made it known that he was god, and gave evidences galore of that fact.

Not promoted--merely thrown out as a possibility. Nevertheless, it think it would be well to restate in a way that leaves Satan out of this. If the plates were accessible to all, it would not actually prove the existence of God. It would simply mean something beyond our ken is going on. What that something is would be anybody's guess. That's the point Res Ipsa and I were trying to make. It would still take faith to believe the plates are evidence of God.

My question has consistently been concerned with what kind of world would that be.

There would be no faith in the earth. Just knowledge. And external force to do god’s bidding. Then for what purpose are we here?

The plates were evidence…but we are free to choose, based upon our faith, whether they are evidence of God. So much of what goes on in this world forces us to choose faith or doubt.

I am not entirely certain why you think faith is to be preferred to knowledge. Faith is something for the time being until we do come into knowlege. "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12, NRSV). Knowledge is something we looking forward to having.

Furthermore, even certain knowledge God exists would not have the effect of an external force making us do God's bidding. Adam and Even had certain knowledge, yet they still ate the fruit. The children of Israel had certain knowledge, yet they were constantly sinning, including making a freaking idol and forsaking the Lord for Baal of Peor. And if the children of Israel had certain knowledge, how much more so Moses, who spoke to God face to face! Yet he sinned so badly that the Lord forbade him from entering the promised land!

[tagriffy]

Agency is taken away if God was to step in every time there are abuses, harms, and mayhems committing by mankind. If God makes Himself directly known once by curtailing one thing, and then another, and then another…where is the line to be drawn?

Presumably God could do it in such a way that he wouldn't make himself directly known.

[Jersey Girl]

Cam I have something for you. It's a link to the Starlink Satellite Train schedule. You can put in your location and see when it's visible in your area. I have gotten into the habit of looking for it now. I don't know, it takes my mind off things and offers a little moment of fascination. Just watch out for locations/paths that have light pollution because you won't see it in that area.

https://findstarlink.com/#5417598;3

I'll put it in a message to you in case you miss this post.

[Philo Sofee]

You're the one who brought God into this, and Jesus Christ and his infinite atonement, and whatnot. Now that that has been shown to be equally as impossibly ludicrous as the plates, and you can't refute the logic against the added theology you wish to brainwash people with, you bow out.

What else do you want to beat the dead horse with at this point? Make it worth while. I’ve been answering and asking questions for many a page now on this thread.

I get it, I really do. I used to do the exact same thing in the exact same boat you are in. The bad news, the boat is sinking and there is no repair kit.

Three hundred plus temples and counting. When I served my mission I think there were around eighteen. The church has progressed to the point where this is even possible. Bringing the blessings of eternity to more and more areas of the globe is awesome. It’s amazing when you think about it. If someone would have told me when on my mission that not that far down the road there would be over three hundred temples I would have said, yeah, right.

Back in the day you probably would have reacted similarly.

Regards,
MG

Big numbers prove they have lots of money to blow and spend. So what? You really think it means its true?!

[MG 2.0]

Agency is taken away if God was to step in every time there are abuses, harms, and mayhems committing by mankind. If God makes Himself directly known once by curtailing one thing, and then another, and then another…where is the line to be drawn?

Presumably God could do it in such a way that he wouldn't make himself directly known.

That’s the rub. I don’t think that’s a safe presumption to make. Especially if He is doing it all the time around the globe. Every hour, every day, week after week and year after year. Folks would catch on. C’mon.

And zap. Knowledge of God throughout the loop of humanity.

I guess at that point we would have to consider whether or not that compromises the plan of salvation. Earlier in the thread I gave my thoughts as to why I think it would.

Regards,
MG

[Jersey Girl]

Oh and Cam. After I put you on ignore I went in the kitchen and shredded a gigantic zucchini with my salad shooter and every one of those zucchini pieces had your name on it when I shoved them through the shooter. So not to worry. I got 6 cups of shredded Cam zucchini. 4 cups in the freezer and two loaves of zucchini bread just came out of the oven.

See there is a God holding back evil to some extent, Doc, or else Jersey would have shredded your behind.

I forgot to mention this, but I just learned that there is a lady at church with long COVID who can barely function. Like she can only stand for like five minutes at a time.

I turned my feelings into zucchini bread!

So sorry to hear about the church lady. This long Covid stuff is simply wicked.