If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

What else do you want to beat the dead horse with at this point? Make it worth while. I’ve been answering and asking questions for many a page now on this thread.



Three hundred plus temples and counting. When I served my mission I think there were around eighteen. The church has progressed to the point where this is even possible. Bringing the blessings of eternity to more and more areas of the globe is awesome. It’s amazing when you think about it. If someone would have told me when on my mission that not that far down the road there would be over three hundred temples I would have said, yeah, right.

Back in the day you probably would have reacted similarly.

Regards,
MG

Big numbers prove they have lots of money to blow and spend. So what? You really think it means its true?!

Yes, I have a high degree of confidence that it’s true. But it’s not because of money spent. The fact that temples are being provided in all parts of the world in unprecedented numbers is what’s amazing.

Wouldn’t you agree with that?

Who would’ve thought?

Brother Brigham?

Regards,
MG

[Philo Sofee]

Big numbers prove they have lots of money to blow and spend. So what? You really think it means its true?!

Yes, I have a high degree of confidence that it’s true. But it’s not because of money spent. The fact that temples are being provided in all parts of the world in unprecedented numbers is what’s amazing.

Wouldn’t you agree with that?

Who would’ve thought?

Brother Brigham?

Regards,
MG

They can build 5,000 more temples and continue ignoring making a good difference in the world where it is needed and I still won't be impressed. After all, Jesus let his own Father's house get destroyed, so much for thinking it all that important. He was MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more interested in helping the downtrodden, the weak and the sick regardless of their religious preference. Oh wait... I am assuming the church knows about Jesus and his Gospel, my bad.

[Jersey Girl]

Okay I'm removing myself from this thread. I'll check to see if PS makes a reply. Any thread where MG looks to be at the center of it is no place for me.

Adios.

[tagriffy]

Presumably God could do it in such a way that he wouldn't make himself directly known.

That’s the rub. I don’t think that’s a safe presumption to make. Especially if He is doing it all the time around the globe. Every hour, every day, week after week and year after year. Folks would catch on. C’mon.

And zap. Knowledge of God throughout the loop of humanity.

I guess at that point we would have to consider whether or not that compromises the plan of salvation. Earlier in the thread I gave my thoughts as to why I think it would.

Regards,
MG

You lack imagination, then. I ride a bicycle as my primary means of transportation. Before moving to my current residence, my route to and from work varied from day to day because I went with the traffic lights. If the light was red here, I'd turn. Occasionally I hear after the fact there was a bad accident at a place I might have been if I hadn't turned at a certain light. Let us suppose God made sure the light was red at the time I was going to be at that intersection, thus sparing me from being killed in the accident that was about to happen down the road. In such a case, he's doing it in a way that he isn't making himself directly known, and in fact could just be waved away as a coincedence.

And if he were constantly doing this day after day, would people catch on? Maybe or maybe not. Many people already anecdotes similar to this--people not being at a place at a time they normally would have been but because [insert something that's utterly trivial]. You'd wind up with lots of anecdotes but no real way of knowing whether it adds up to anything.

[Gadianton]

Well, we wouldn’t if there hadn’t been a claim to translate ‘them’ by the gift and power of God. But the fact is, a claim WAS made for actual plates. I’ve spoken at length about this throughout the thread.

But we must look through a glass darkly. Just because a claim was made to translate actual plates doesn't mean the claim must be true. God can work it out even if it was claimed that there were plates yet there weren't plates. You have to trust God. Just because it doesn't work out the way you want it to work out or the way you think it has to doesn't mean God can't make it work out that way. Prophets aren't perfect, and even if he made up the plate story doesn't mean he wasn't a prophet.

MG logic isn't "if plates, God". It's "God, therefore plates, or no plates if he wants, or any other option that I feel like in the moment, life is messy...if you want an omelet you've got to break some eggs, and man can't be in the business of telling God what eggs he can't break. "

[MG 2.0]

That’s the rub. I don’t think that’s a safe presumption to make. Especially if He is doing it all the time around the globe. Every hour, every day, week after week and year after year. Folks would catch on. C’mon.

And zap. Knowledge of God throughout the loop of humanity.

I guess at that point we would have to consider whether or not that compromises the plan of salvation. Earlier in the thread I gave my thoughts as to why I think it would.

Regards,
MG

You lack imagination, then. I ride a bicycle as my primary means of transportation. Before moving to my current residence, my route to and from work varied from day to day because I went with the traffic lights. If the light was red here, I'd turn. Occasionally I hear after the fact there was a bad accident at a place I might have been if I hadn't turned at a certain light. Let us suppose God made sure the light was red at the time I was going to be at that intersection, thus sparing me from being killed in the accident that was about to happen down the road. In such a case, he's doing it in a way that he isn't making himself directly known, and in fact could just be waved away as a coincedence.

And if he were constantly doing this day after day, would people catch on? Maybe or maybe not. Many people already anecdotes similar to this--people not being at a place at a time they normally would have been but because [insert something that's utterly trivial]. You'd wind up with lots of anecdotes but no real way of knowing whether it adds up to anything.

I think that as folks started noticing people dropping dead everything time they were about to do serious harm and this was making it on the news that would create a stir.

I’m amused that you’re even trying to make an argument here. It tells me that you may not really be serious.

Playing games.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

thus sparing me from being killed in the accident that was about to happen down the road. In such a case, he's doing it in a way that he isn't making himself directly known

getting there. usually evidence starts with the most useless examples of existential evil, not necessarily the most heart-wrenching situations. No matter how disingenuous free agency arguments can get, or "we can't change the plan", steering clear altogether can avoid that. Like, an example on the Internet; lighting strikes and there's a forest fire (in an uninhabited part of the world), and a fawn is painfully burned to death. Nobody's free agency was at risk by saving the fawn, and it's hard to imagine how sparing the painful destruction of the fawn would derail any "plan" for the seed of Adam and Eve.

[MG 2.0]

Well, we wouldn’t if there hadn’t been a claim to translate ‘them’ by the gift and power of God. But the fact is, a claim WAS made for actual plates. I’ve spoken at length about this throughout the thread.

But we must look through a glass darkly. Just because a claim was made to translate actual plates doesn't mean the claim must be true. God can work it out even if it was claimed that there were plates yet there weren't plates. You have to trust God. Just because it doesn't work out the way you want it to work out or the way you think it has to doesn't mean God can't make it work out that way. Prophets aren't perfect, and even if he made up the plate story doesn't mean he wasn't a prophet.

MG logic isn't "if plates, God". It's "God, therefore plates, or no plates if he wants, or any other option that I feel like in the moment, life is messy...if you want an omelet you've got to break some eggs, and man can't be in the business of telling God what eggs he can't break. "

Same as what I said to tgriffy. I’m not taking what you say seriously at this point. Doesn’t make common sense. We’ve …cumulatively…been around the block too many times to count at this point on this thread. I’m not seeing anything new under the sun at this point.

You guys are twisting God around in contortions to make him fit your narrative. Yes, I know, you think I’m doing the same. Oh well.

I’m confident in what I’ve said throughout the thread. I’ve seen threadjacks, strawmen, misrepresentations, ignorance, and the like. And no, I’m not projecting.

What a ride!

Getting into the mind of a nonbeliever is a real trip.

And I thank you for that.

As I said earlier, I’ll check in later to see what’s happening but I think we’ve sort of reached an impasse. I encouraged Philo to come up with something additional that might find application and didn’t get much.

Take care.

Regards,
MG

[malkie]

If a police officer catches a would-be child abuser just before he hurts a child, is that officer frustrating god's will? and should he repent?

Just one example, of course.

No. He is saving a child from harm. Definitely not frustrating God’s will.

Common sense, right?

Regards,
MG

Common sense to me, MG - I wasn't sure that it was to you.

You see, I don't get how the child abuser now shows his guilt.

Or are you assuming that he gets away with it this time, but the next time he's more careful, and so gets to abuse the child because he manages to elude the police?

Or he realizes that he may not be able to get away with it, and so stops trying. He's still evil, still a child molester at heart, but is not willing to take the risk any more in case he is caught in the act next time.

[tagriffy]

You lack imagination, then. I ride a bicycle as my primary means of transportation. Before moving to my current residence, my route to and from work varied from day to day because I went with the traffic lights. If the light was red here, I'd turn. Occasionally I hear after the fact there was a bad accident at a place I might have been if I hadn't turned at a certain light. Let us suppose God made sure the light was red at the time I was going to be at that intersection, thus sparing me from being killed in the accident that was about to happen down the road. In such a case, he's doing it in a way that he isn't making himself directly known, and in fact could just be waved away as a coincedence.

And if he were constantly doing this day after day, would people catch on? Maybe or maybe not. Many people already anecdotes similar to this--people not being at a place at a time they normally would have been but because [insert something that's utterly trivial]. You'd wind up with lots of anecdotes but no real way of knowing whether it adds up to anything.

I think that as folks started noticing people dropping dead everything time they were about to do serious harm and this was making it on the news that would create a stir.

I’m amused that you’re even trying to make an argument here. It tells me that you may not really be serious.

Playing games.

Regards,
MG

Actually, I'm quite serious. Indeed, I can even claim Scriptural backing for the idea. The Joseph cycle in Genesis doesn't depict God directly doing anything, and in fact the principals only see God at work retroactively. God is never directly mentioned at all in Esther, yet it also seems clear the author intends us to see God working behind the scenes. There are probably other stories in Scripture that could be called upon; these two are just off the top of my head.

A person dropping dead when they were about to do serious harm--what's that? God doing something like that need not be as dramatic as the gunman scenario I posted previously. A person puts on a coat, intending to go out and kidnap, rape, and murder a child, but drops dead as their hand reaches for the door. How are we supposed to know they were about to do serious harm? And why would something like that make it on the news? People drop dead all the time.