That’s OK. I would imagine you might also be aware of the implications of admitting that it’s very possible that Joseph Smith could not have written the Book of Mormon on his own.
I nominate this as the best answer yet!!!!Morley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:36 amIn case I didn't make myself clear, let's say that I saw the plates, witnessed an angel handing them over, and the plates were obviously made of gold encrusted with emeralds and diamonds. The translation provided would still would be bereft of merit as regards history, theology, and literature. That the plates were there wouldn't change the larger reality.
The millions creation-God believers who have been taught by missionaries and still rejected the message will testify to this.
Except for the fact that it is a non answer to the most important question I’ve been asking. Five people gave an honest answer. Two have waffled.Marcus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 amI nominate this as the best answer yet!!!!Morley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:36 amIn case I didn't make myself clear, let's say that I saw the plates, witnessed an angel handing them over, and the plates were obviously made of gold encrusted with emeralds and diamonds. The translation provided would still would be bereft of merit as regards history, theology, and literature. That the plates were there wouldn't change the larger reality.
The millions creation-God believers who have been taught by missionaries and still rejected the message will testify to this.
No, you did not make your case that Brother Joe couldn’t have done it on his own. Instead, you provided a link to an anesthesiologist’s website.MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:03 amYou said it didn’t matter. But it does. Especially if Joseph could not have written it on his own. And I’ve already made my case as to why it is unreasonable to think that he did.
So, back to the simple question which I don’t believe you’ve answered directly: Do you consider Joseph Smith to be the sole author of the Book of Mormon?
I don’t want to beat that dead horse.
I do believe you are dodging the question knowing full well the implications.
At this point, along with Res Ipsa, I expect nothing less than stonewalling.
And that wastes both of our time.
Regards,
MG
morley comments are accurate.
It is a good answer. To add to it, the Church no longer claims the plates were translated. So they were a prop regardless of where you sit in terms of believing in them as a real object. All that effort to retrieve something when all along Joseph could simply read words off a rock that he had previously claimed could show the location of buried treasure. Nobody saw the plates. Witnesses lie. Tituba ended up in jail on the corroborative nature of witness testimony - all of whom were lying.Marcus wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 amI nominate this as the best answer yet!!!!Morley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:36 amIn case I didn't make myself clear, let's say that I saw the plates, witnessed an angel handing them over, and the plates were obviously made of gold encrusted with emeralds and diamonds. The translation provided would still would be bereft of merit as regards history, theology, and literature. That the plates were there wouldn't change the larger reality.
The millions creation-God believers who have been taught by missionaries and still rejected the message will testify to this.
Pointing out that millions of believers and non-believers alike see the 'translation' as bereft of merit, regardless of who wrote it, is just icing on the cake.
Bill Reel, RFM, Kerry Shirts, Dan Vogel, and a multitude others…are they any more qualified to do historical research than Brian Hales? Do they have any more innate skills and intellectual prowess than he does? Your reference to him as an anesthesiologist may be more of a compliment than the ad hominem you may have had in mind.Morley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:09 amNo, you did not make your case that Brother Joe couldn’t have done it on his own. Instead, you provided a link to an anesthesiologist’s website.MG 2.0 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:03 am
You said it didn’t matter. But it does. Especially if Joseph could not have written it on his own. And I’ve already made my case as to why it is unreasonable to think that he did.
I don’t want to beat that dead horse.
I do believe you are dodging the question knowing full well the implications.
At this point, along with Res Ipsa, I expect nothing less than stonewalling.
And that wastes both of our time.
Regards,
MG
You bring up the possibility of supernatural assistance. I’m assuming you then would be open to the possibility of God and angels. If so, how do you then dove tail that possibility with a “fabrication” in the sense that it is purely a nineteenth century creation? On its face that doesn’t make sense. Again, it comes back to what I’ve repeatedly said…if Joseph Smith was not the one who wrote the Book of Mormon who did? You’re apparently open to the supernatural. Why would God have Joseph create a work of fiction that testifies of itself. Historically and otherwise?Morley wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:09 amFor argument’s sake, however, let’s say that Joseph did get some help putting the Book of Mormon together—whether said assistance was mortal or supernatural—but that the result was the same 19th America fabrication that we have now. It wouldn’t shake my world to find this out. The finished book is still the same weak sister it’s always been.
God, angels, and ultimate truth.
Because there is strong evidence that Joseph Smith was highly unlikely to have been able to write the Book of Mormon on his own. The question then remains, how did the Book of Mormon come into being? The answer to THIS question has huge implications.huckelberry wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:16 ams in God and believes an angel and translation by the power of God are not impossible things. The evidence is that they are not what happened with the Book of Mormon.
As Morley explained.
By the way it is clear that you MG think there is reason that Joseph could not do it. None of us are convinced of that idea. Why do you repeat it as if the very questionable idea was settled data?.
