Does character still matter in politics?

[Dr Exiled]

It was called Russian disinformation and turned out to be authentic.

https://jonathanturley.org/2024/06/29/t ... e-obvious/

You and your cohorts here pushed the nonsense and Res called me a putin puppet for not believing the 51 supposed intelligence officers. I get that the enlightened Mormons needed to push nonsense apologetics to protect the less enlightened, but I've left it. I also get that it might have changed the election results and that our supposed intelligence officers and their cabal wanted war with Russia. Heaven forbid the Russians control their resources. Biden, Obama, and Clinton were more reliable for those goals.

Rather than say whatever, here's the actual quote:

It is for all these reasons that we write to say that the arrival on the US polical scene of emails purportedly belonging to Vice President Biden’s son Hunter, much of it related to his serving on the Board of the Ukrainian gas company Burisma, has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation.

We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case.

If we are right, this is Russia trying to influence how Americans vote in this election, and we believe strongly that Americans need to be aware of this.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000175 ... 9f9b330000

And as noted up thread the concern around it included the lack of transparency by Rudy and Co. in not sharing the actual files.

That there turned out to be a laptop likely owned by Hunter Biden with pictures of his dick and emails that support him being a sleazy dude isn't relevant to the intended aim of its release as an attempted October surprise. The sources you totally get your information from being apparently fed by Russian propaganda, I get why you are all in on their butthurt over it not working the way their leak of the DNC emails did in 2016.

It's not the dick picks so much as the selling the Biden name operation, but Russia bad, must go to war for their resources. Anything against narrative from Russia.

[honorentheos]

It's not the dick picks so much as the selling the Biden name operation, but Russia bad, must go to war for their resources. Anything against narrative from Russia.

Hunter Biden selling in the Biden name is irrelevant to the Presidential race. What is relevant is the content was intended to portray VP Biden as selling his office which is the aim of the Russian propaganda campaign you fell for and still support. It doesn't, he didn't, and the media you consume is infiltrated.

[Dr Exiled]

It's not the dick picks so much as the selling the Biden name operation, but Russia bad, must go to war for their resources. Anything against narrative from Russia.

Hunter Biden selling in the Biden name is irrelevant to the Presidential race. What is relevant is the content was intended to portray VP Biden as selling his office which is the aim of the Russian propaganda campaign you fell for and still support. It doesn't, he didn't, and the media you consume is infiltrated.

Talk about yet another conspiracy theory that'll be reluctantly acknowledged by Rachel Maddow, the NY Tumes, and Washington Post soon. Let me know when your decoder ring runs out of juice.

[ceeboo]

Would you entertain discussing what you actually see as the values the Republican party best represents and that you support, for example?

No, I would not entertain doing that here.

I say that because I think it used to be more about competing values than it is today. Today it's about narrative, pure and simple.

In addition to narrative, I would add control, fear, and dependency as very close cousins.

[honorentheos]

Would you entertain discussing what you actually see as the values the Republican party best represents and that you support, for example?

No, I would not entertain doing that here.

Then what's the point?

[ceeboo]

No, I would not entertain doing that here.

Then what's the point?

The point of my participation in this thread is clear. I suggested that the thread is damaging to relationships, Americans, and widens an already wide divide amongst the people. I suggested it because it's true.

What was your point to participate in this thread?

[honorentheos]

Then what's the point?

The point of my participation in this thread is clear. I suggested that the thread is damaging to relationships, Americans, and widens an already wide divide amongst the people. I suggested it because it's true.

What was your point to participate in this thread?

My point is politics don't happen in a vacuum. I don't think titles of threads are damaging relationships. I believe quite strongly the beliefs and active behaviors of folks in American politics today is undermining important values essential to our system. We are a nation founded on ideas rather than shared genes or religion. And the preservation of the idea of democratic access to opportunity regardless of one's birth is a revolutionary one. It demands understanding and commitment to survive and thrive.

[honorentheos]

There is an interesting book that came out in the early 2010s that comes to mind here, ceebs. Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. He also wrote Black Swans which some folks here may have read or heard of.

At its most basic, it's about systems that gain resiliency from stress compared to systems that break under stress. And one concern discussed is the idea of intervention leading to a build up of stresses that become so great when they finally do overcome the system it leads to catastrophy.

Socially, it includes the urge some folks feel to avoid having important discussions in order to play nice. While probably good intentioned, the avoidance of the actual issues isn't leading to a stronger system. Instead, it's attempting to dam up the stressors and keep them from leaking out. As the dam holds back more and more unaddressed conflict points, the potential energy climbs until the energy required to hold it all back can't be sustained and the dam bursts.

The system needs healthy debate, not avoidance.

[honorentheos]

The other issue regarding, "If not Biden then who?" is perplexing. I don't mean as a replacement for Biden. I mean as the party moves forward in 2028 and beyond. How does anyone represent the multiple often conflicting values and positions shoved together under the same roof by our system? Sanders was winning in 2020 for the very same reasons Trump won the Republican nom in 2016 against a divided field that had much more in common with each other than their fringe challengers. The difference between the outcomes basically being due to the Democrat process distributing electoral votes based on win percentage rather than having a winner take all process, and the four remaining moderates uniting against Sanders when it was clear they were dividing the moderate vote. But as in 2020, I have to hope it sorts out in the process.

I brought this over from the other thread because it has me thinking about the importance of sincerity in debate as an essential component of democracy. Whatever else one may think, the 2020 Democrat primary process has ultimately resulted in an effective executive branch. Biden was arguably the only moderate enough of the folks who were going to vote Democrat could get behind and show up for at the polls even if he wasn't very many people's 1st choice. The system allowed for this through the apportionment of electors based on percentage of votes received rather than winner take all in any state, and I have to imagine no small part of this success came out of a primary process where different ideas and views were debated, often with passion and a few hurt feelings.

The 2016 primary process was largely a circus. That's a term used regularly to describe it from when it was underway in case anyone thinks I'm painting with a broad partisan brush when using it now. It lacked sincerity and the outcome was an administration that gutted government and had unprecedented turnover. Most of Trump's former staff won't endorse him this go around.

Now 2024 saw a real breakdown of the primary process on both sides even if the Democrats followed precedent by falling in behind the incumbent. Trump simply refused to participate in it and acted like an incumbent as well such that there was almost no debate about ideas or the needs of the country. Probably not healthy in either case.

Anyway, sincere debate is not just healthy but essential for our system to be healthy.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Then what's the point?

The point of my participation in this thread is clear. I suggested that the thread is damaging to relationships, Americans, and widens an already wide divide amongst the people. I suggested it because it's true.

What was your point to participate in this thread?

I wonder how many MAGA doors Ceeboo has knocked and explained to them that they’re dividing this country with bad etiquette?

- Doc