CWK: Is Excommunication a Medieval Solution?

[drumdude]

I see it as completely in character with Oak’s theology. The ultimate unquestionable authority of the brethren is his most important idea he wants to convey to the members. There is no better way to demonstrate that authority than to flex it with these public shows of force.

Oaks cares about legalism, authoritarianism, and purity culture. Those are his fundamental religious tenants, and they supersede any of those loving liberal ideas that Jesus Christ ever said.

Sounds pretty accurate to me.

To be fair to Oaks. If Mormonism is true, it’s not a terrible way to run his church. We’ve seen how lackluster the more progressive forms of Mormonism quickly become.

[Gadianton]

The activist perspective is way outside of my comprehension. The end is inevitable at some point. I see a place for it though. I think it's good there are people who bait the Church and force it to look heavy-handed. I do think people need to test boundaries for it to change. I don't feel bad about their cases, however. The ones I feel bad about are those fully blue-pilled and it becomes a shame and shunning exercise, even though technically it's not supposed to work that way. It does.

Of course Oaks bragging that there needs to be more of it is silly. But, if I were a leader, and the opposition was up in arms about what a terrible thing it is, I'd take it as a sign that we're on the right path. If it were really hurting the Church, then apostates would be like, yeah, keep doing it! wohoo!

[Kishkumen]

The activist perspective is way outside of my comprehension. The end is inevitable at some point. I see a place for it though. I think it's good there are people who bait the Church and force it to look heavy-handed. I do think people need to test boundaries for it to change. I don't feel bad about their cases, however. The ones I feel bad about are those fully blue-pilled and it becomes a shame and shunning exercise, even though technically it's not supposed to work that way. It does.

Of course Oaks bragging that there needs to be more of it is silly. But, if I were a leader, and the opposition was up in arms about what a terrible thing it is, I'd take it as a sign that we're on the right path. If it were really hurting the Church, then apostates would be like, yeah, keep doing it! wohoo!

Most people leave the LDS Church out of apathy or disappointment. I guess excommunications make it look more like a high-stakes, momentous event.

[Kishkumen]

We’ve seen how lackluster the more progressive forms of Mormonism quickly become.

Community of Christ?

I have long wondered whether God’s cruelty is important to Christianity, making progressive versions lacking in a key characteristic.

[hauslern]

I remember my court case. I had started a little history group which included some members of the local Community of Christ some LDS and an interested outsider. I with another person presented a paper on three reasons why the first vision should be questioned. 1 The various accounts 2.Joseph Smith's reputation and 3. the revival question. I had been corresponding with Wesley P Walters who famous paper on the revival question was in 1969 Spring Dialogue. We had a orthodox member present a response. my coauthor was not LDS and now works for an NGO aide org in Myanmar.
The stake court case involved testimony from my Bishop. The orthodox member also spoke. I was not allowed to be present. I did not have a clue what they said about me. The irony was some time before a local bishop organized a get together with some Seventh Day Adventist youth. I met a member who was a collector of books like myself and he had Tanner's Shadow or Reality. The contents of that book encouraged me to do further study.

[Kishkumen]

I remember my court case. I had started a little history group which included some members of the local Community of Christ some LDS and an interested outsider. I with another person presented a paper on three reasons why the first vision should be questioned. 1 The various accounts 2.Joseph Smith's reputation and 3. the revival question. I had been corresponding with Wesley P Walters who famous paper on the revival question was in 1969 Spring Dialogue. We had a orthodox member present a response. my coauthor was not LDS and now works for an NGO aide org in Myanmar.
The stake court case involved testimony from my Bishop. The orthodox member also spoke. I was not allowed to be present. I did not have a clue what they said about me. The irony was some time before a local bishop organized a get together with some Seventh Day Adventist youth. I met a member who was a collector of books like myself and he had Tanner's Shadow or Reality. The contents of that book encouraged me to do further study.

I had no idea about any of this, Noel! Thanks so much for sharing. If this is all that comes out of my little cwk episode on excommunication, it was well worth doing.

[Moksha]

Of course Oaks bragging that there needs to be more of it is silly. But, if I were a leader, and the opposition was up in arms about what a terrible thing it is, I'd take it as a sign that we're on the right path. If it were really hurting the Church, then apostates would be like, yeah, keep doing it! wohoo!

Excellent point. Getting rid of those high-minded idealists who want to do right by the Church and members, while maintaining their integrity must be stopped. Excommunicating them will teach prayer, tithing, and most of all obedience. Nectar to Shaitan, and make Nemo wear his goat leggings next time!!!

[bbbbbbb]

As an aside, I find the word "medieval" to be a perjorative application of an otherwise objective word which simply refers to the period of history between the fall of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance. As with any period of history, there was an immense amount of development which was occurring. In the Far East these centuries encompassed huge developments as in the rise and fall of various Chinese empires. There were no such milestones as the Roman Empire or the Renaissance to bracket the period for them. The only historical blip occurred near the end when Marco Polo and various Catholic missionaries ventured east.

Why "medieval" is a perjorative word is difficult to comprehend, even as "Victorian" and "Puritan" were once used in a similar fashion. It would probably be more accurate to call excommunication, as practiced by the LDS, an ineffectual solution (at best) or an irrelevant solution (at worst). The fact is that only Mormons ascribe meaning to their church's polity. For non-Mormons such as myself, such things carry no more significance than the historical veracity of the Book of Abraham.

[hauslern]

Lowell Bennion escaped excommunication for his views on the negro priesthood question by the intervention of David O McKay. The same happened with Sterling McMurrin a very liberal LDS member and philosopher. Royal Skousen has expressed views in his CV and in an email to myself that he thought the facsimiles should be dropped from the Book of Abraham and the contents be accepted as given by revelation. He still has his job. I once saw a New Yorker cartoon where the KIng was concerned about his legacy. An advisor's advice was "kill the historians" Boyd Packer was not happy with historians in the church. Bennion was threatened with loss of employment at the University of Utah LDS institute. However Martin Luther's excommunication also seen as a threat to his life and he had to be whisked away to safety. He questioned the authority of the Pope and considered the Bible to be the authority in matters of faith. Interesting comparison with the methods of the Jehovah's witnesses who practice shunning of former members. One can even be shunned for associating with a shunned individual. This happened with Ray Franz a former member of the governing body of the JWs. Maybe it should be "kill the Jesuits" A visit to a Catholic book shop revealed to me how many Jesuit scholars are writing books that centuries ago would get them excommunicated. It seems Trevor that some Catholics are questioning the procedure. https://www.ncronline.org/news/does-exc ... o-any-good
"The church’s canon law excommunicates anyone involved in obtaining or procuring an abortion. It also automatically excommunicates heretics, schismatics, priests who break the seal of confession, and bishops who ordain other bishops without Vatican permission. Canon law does not excommunicate rapists, child molesters, or, for that matter, murderers. Contrary to common misperception, the bishop of Phoenix and archbishop of Recife did not excommunicate the women and doctors themselves; the prelates declared that the excommunications had taken place automatically (latae sententiae), by the very act of abortion itself.