Are there still liberal Mormons?

[MG 2.0]

And yet another post from the troll.

Thanks, but no thanks for that.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Honestly, don’t you folks often wonder how in the world I can remain a member of the church and actually believe?

Not the least bit. It's completely obvious why you can remain a member of the Church and actually believe and spend so much time on this board, read anything you want in the world and it doesn't affect your faith.

[Kishkumen]

It simply amazes me to observe the hubris that comes from your keyboard. What I said is in part true. You are an amazingly smart person, right? So is Morley. There are some very bright people here. But that also really goes without saying.

Everybody seems to know that.

The wink and lol are in reference to the hubris and self confident judgement which is on display as you pontificate on the strengths and weaknesses of others. The nit picky stuff.

A MAJOR focus.

Now…why is that? Does it take special training? Or is a lack of human decency to simply cut each other some slack and smile…in a kind sort of way…in regards to the quirks and yes, even inadequacies of others.

Maybe I’m not cut out for the ‘debate stage’ where debate preparation includes poking and prodding for the slightest little opening to rush in and grind the other person and/or their arguments down rather than looking for possible strong points and strengths.

I can do better. Can you do better? As it is, this gets awfully tedious presenting an opinion or an argument to simply have it turned on a 180 through argumentative methodologies designed to simply go in for the kill through finding some kind of rhetorical weakness in argument.

I guess it’s not a living room where we sit around and chat.

It’s always ‘high stakes’. It’s too bad it has to be that way. I suppose it’s the whole religion/politics thing where polarization seems to be the only game in town for many. Even if on an unconscious level.

It wasn’t a troll post as much as an ‘it is what it is kind of hopeless’ post. I guess if we are truly looking at each other as the enemy then there is no hope for reconciliation.

If I can’t even connect with malkie on a simple level of ‘hey, you’re a good guy’, then, well, I find that sad.

I do like the general framing of this board of being able to give and take and share ideas. But there seems to be a level of animosity that I’m finding disheartening with very little room, it seems, for basic human kindness.

And yes, I can always do better also. I was a little snarky in some of my recent comments.

Also, truth be told, I think we both (believers and non believers) make personal observations to ourselves that we are talking more or less to a brick wall.

I know I do!

This board might actually be better off being an echo chamber of sorts. A silo. It may well be that religious discussion, where there will naturally be disagreements, is better had in the living room rather than online. I’ve felt like more than ‘one voice’ needed to be heard here.

I still do. But I sometimes find my self wondering if that’s actually possible. So many believing members have come and gone and given up trying to find common ground. Tough to do in these circumstances where our core beliefs are 180 degrees different from each other.

In a certain sense we may actually look at each other as being stupid. “How can a person believe that?” Honestly, don’t you folks often wonder how in the world I can remain a member of the church and actually believe?

In other words, I’m some kind of stupid right out of the gate? How can you even believe this stuff?

Ceeboo was recently treated unfairly (I’m not going to argue yay or nay on that) and he unfortunately responded unkindly. But I think he was being looked at and treated as an inferior simply because he believes in the Judaeo Christian God.

Lots of pretty smart people do. I’m reading a book right now called, “The Language of God” by Francis Collins. Smart guy to say the least. But at the end of the day some would look at him as being somehow deficient because he too hasn't ‘seen the light’.

It’s tough when the ‘crowd’ is chanting one thing and you’re standing up for Christ. I admire Ceeboo for that. Standing up for God. In the midst of unbelievers asking for proofs for something that is much bigger than our five senses and worldly logic.

Anyway, that’s enough. Thanks for listening if you got this far!

Must be the cold medication. Cough cough.

Regards,
MG

Not everyone here is an atheist obviously.

[Marcus]

... the hubris and self confident judgement which is on display as you pontificate on the strengths and weaknesses of others...

That's you.

...preparation includes poking and prodding for the slightest little opening to rush in and grind the other person and/or their arguments down rather than looking for possible strong points and strengths...

Your standard MO against grindael.

...this gets awfully tedious presenting an opinion or an argument to simply have it turned on a 180 through argumentative methodologies...

Lol. Definitely you.

I suppose it’s the whole religion/politics thing where polarization seems to be the only game in town for many. Even if on an unconscious level.

you do it unconsciously? Every thread you enter ends up there.

...If I can’t even connect with malkie on a simple level of ‘hey, you’re a good guy’, then, well, I find that sad.

did you try?

I do like the general framing of this board of being able to give and take and share ideas. But there seems to be a level of animosity that I’m finding disheartening with very little room, it seems, for basic human kindness.

You bring the animosity in your judgmental approach, try bringing the kindness you want to see.

. ..In a certain sense we may actually look at each other as being stupid.

Yes, we get that from you. It's quite clear you think people who have left the LDS church become stupid.

Ceeboo was recently treated unfairly (I’m not going to argue yay or nay on that) and he unfortunately responded unkindly. But I think he was being looked at and treated as an inferior simply because he believes in the Judaeo Christian God.

Incorrect. Others are believers here, but they don't repeatedly call those who disagree with them "morons", like Ceeboo did.

It’s tough when the ‘crowd’ is chanting one thing and you’re standing up for Christ. I admire Ceeboo for that. Standing up for God.

May i suggest standing up for your beliefs with intellectual honesty? And without disingenuousness, without giving equivocating non-answers, and without calling people morons?

Those are the problems, not your beliefs.

[I Have Questions]

Were their witness statements all independently given? Or was their witnessing grouped together and written by someone else, who tells us that they all signed off on it?

This is an excellent point. It’s one persons version of an event that he got 3 and 8 other people to agree happened. And those people were all close family and friends. That’s how affinity fraud works.

[ceeboo]

It simply amazes me to observe the hubris that comes from your keyboard. What I said is in part true. You are an amazingly smart person, right? So is Morley. There are some very bright people here. But that also really goes without saying.

Putting aside your opinion concerning a specific individual being amazingly smart in order to speak more broadly. Having "very bright" members can be quite valuable to the collective community on a message board - it can be a benefit to all who participate, and it can promote an environment to learn as well as be the catalyst for provoking thought. Over many years participating here, I have benefited greatly in the learning department, and I have been provoked to think.

It can also be rendered worthless. This personal attribute can be used, in clever ways, to change the direction and/or course of a discussion - It can be used to demean others in order to announce personal victory resulting in a desired piece of hardware proudly added to all of the other trophies in their spectacular trophy case - It can be used to cement an imaginary position upon others and then assault the position that they created. Being "very bright" is not what matters - rather, what matters, and where the deep value is found, is entirely determined by what one decides to do with this brightness.

The nit picky stuff.

I don't think you should underestimate the "nitpicky" stuff. It is precisely the nitpicky stuff that provides the open highway - with no traffic obstructions - with no stop signs - with no police cars around - that allows the driver of the vehicle to travel at any speed they want - in any direction they want - and park wherever they choose to park. You see, it isn't really nitpicky at all, it is necessary.

Ceeboo was recently treated unfairly

I wasn't going to reply to this, but I saw that Marcus pasted the following to you: "Others are believers here, but they don't repeatedly call those who disagree with them "morons", like Ceeboo did."

Another example of what I suggested above about intentionally cementing imaginary scenarios to proclaim victory. I did not call anyone a moron because they disagreed with me (as cleverly suggested) - People on this board have been disagreeing with me daily for years - I called the first person a moron because they called me a racist twice in a total of two exchanges - that would be 2 for 2 (Calling someone a racist that you know almost nothing about is moronic) I then called Marcus a moron (and a high-level hypocrite) because she decided to bring her personal challenge into another thread and post that she had a problem with me calling a board member a moron while having complete and total lockjaw when it comes to the countless times that other people have called people morons on this board. Clearly, Marcus is all about supporting/defending the people who write things on this board and not what is written on this board. This, in my opinion, is one of the biggest problems that this board faces.

And I do not repeatedly call those who disagree with me a moron. For example. I call Marcus a moron because I think Marcus is a moron.

Truth: I did call a few people morons recently - One was someone who has addressed me a total of two times (I think it was two) on this board and both times he/she suggested that I was a racist. I replied that I thought he/she was a moron. The other time is when Marus (A very loyal and committed team player, in an effort to defend a team member, decided to inject this into another thread to ask me to stop calling board members a moron (This is just one example of the clever and intentional things I suggested above) - In addition, I asked Marcus why she didn't have a problem with the hundreds of times that other people have called board members a moron on this board. She didn't respond, rather she did a board search to illustrate to the board how many times I have done this in the last so many days (another example of what I suggested above - it's not nitpicky, it is necessary).

I then called Marcus a moron (in addition to a high-level hypocrite) because Marus is a high-level hypocrite team playing moron. Marus is also the biggest troll I have ever seen on these message boards (which is why I get a kick out of Mracus regularly calling other members a troll)

[Marcus]

That was quite the rant, ceeboo. Could you put that much time and effort into answering some of the questions you avoid?

Oh, and not sure of my count, because I just skimmed your version of "history" in your rant, but let me update:

"Ceeboo has now called fellow board members "moron" in excess of FIFTEEN times in the last NINE days."

Usage of Moron:

The terms idiot, imbecile, moron, and their derivatives were formerly used as technical descriptors in medical, educational, and regulatory contexts.

These uses were broadly rejected by the close of the 20th century and are now considered offensive.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary

Welcome to the 21st century, ceeboo. You're now using the term moron as a mindless slur.

[Marcus]

Were their witness statements all independently given? Or was their witnessing grouped together and written by someone else, who tells us that they all signed off on it?

This is an excellent point. It’s one persons version of an event that he got 3 and 8 other subsequently people agreed happened. And those people were all close family and friends. That’s how affinity fraud works.

Great point about affinity fraud, I hadn't even considered that. Maybe that's why Utah is the capital of that!

[ceeboo]

That was quite the rant, ceeboo.

In addition, the number of times that you use the laughing emoji to laugh at someone - mock someone - insinuate your heightened intellect over those beneath you - and/or intend to demean someone, is off the charts.

In case you didn't know, the laughing emoji can be used, if chosen, to share a laugh with someone, rather than to use it as a weapon for your personal and individual benefit.

[Marcus]

That was quite the rant, ceeboo.

In addition, the number of times that you use the laughing emoji to laugh at someone - mock someone - insinuate your heightened intellect over those beneath you - and/or intend to demean someone, is off the charts.

In case you didn't know, the laughing emoji can be used, if chosen, to share a laugh with someone, rather than to use it as a weapon for your personal and individual benefit.

I'd love to hear your response to the question I originally asked you, but you've put so much effort into your rants that I don't think it's going to happen. IHQ picked the conversation up, though, and has made some excellent points. It would be great to get back to that. Here's a bump:

Were their witness statements all independently given? Or was their witnessing grouped together and written by someone else, who tells us that they all signed off on it?

This is an excellent point. It’s one persons version of an event that he got 3 and 8 other people to agree happened. And those people were all close family and friends. That’s how affinity fraud works.