The Rise in Political Violence

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

From RI’s link above:
As political leaders gin up anger and reduce the sense of consequences, and as affective polarization creates a sense of community and belonging for aggressive, more authoritarian personalities, all types of targeted violence are increasing.



Conversely, if Americans had very high levels of affective polarization, but politicians, media leaders, and local leaders maintained a stance of equanimity and civility toward the other party, political violence would probably not increase much outside of particularly virulent subcommunities.
Huh. You don’t say.

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Kishkumen
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

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ceeboo wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:20 am
montage of Democrats objecting to 2016 election
https://youtu.be/umsAhEFHFKA?si=IhjvtzvDvwt6lwLB
I kept waiting for the mob of Democrats breaking into the Capitol preparing to hang the VP.

Where was that again?

I mean, I can play videos of the lame court cases that Trump lost, but the use of legal procedures to question the results is not the same damned thing as an armed mob trying to stop the count of electoral ballots, is it?
FLASHBACK: Hillary Clinton repeatedly called Trump 'illegitimate' president

https://youtu.be/iO-Sw8CCxxY?si=bhfDsnhWSb2wFDKp
And where is the video of her sending a mob to storm the Capitol? You know, the ones with the zip ties to detain Congress illegally. The ones beating up and thereby hospitalizing police officers, some of whom died?

I think we can agree that Clinton was a sore loser who wanted to blame the Russians for her loss. But Clinton didn't break the law in calling Trump illegitimate, ceeboo. I think it was dumb of her to do, but it was not illegal. How many of Trump's people have been convicted of crimes? Has Trump not been convicted of multiple felonies?

This does not happen just because. There is no mass conspiracy that results in all of these convictions. Trump broke the law. His chumps and lackeys broke the law. And they did so not just to contest an election. They did so to steal an election. You bring the receipts that show Clinton seeking to steal an election. Your videos show no such thing or anything close to it.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Post by Res Ipsa »

ceeboo wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:20 am
Hey Res
Res Ipsa wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:37 pm
Only one side has been pre-programmed to reject the results of the election if their preferred candidate loses.
Only one side? I thought this was how both sides play politics.

montage of Democrats objecting to 2016 election
https://youtu.be/umsAhEFHFKA?si=IhjvtzvDvwt6lwLB
The left knows the election is close and that Harris could lose. There is no equivalent on the left to the notion common on the right that a Trump loss means the election was illegitimate.
Only the political right speaks about illegitimacy? I thought this was how both sides play politics.

FLASHBACK: Hillary Clinton repeatedly called Trump 'illegitimate' president

https://youtu.be/iO-Sw8CCxxY?si=bhfDsnhWSb2wFDKp
Ceeboo, your post is a classic example of false equivalence. I don’t care what Clinton said in a speech or other politicians said in an event staged for show. Clinton didn’t poison the well before the 2016 election like Trump did in 2020 by claiming over and over again before any votes were cast that the election was rigged and the only way he could lose was if the Ds cheated. After the election, Clinton didn’t promote a big lie that she only lost because Relief Society cheated. She didn’t file frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit trying to find some judge —any judge — that would thwart the expressed will of the voters. She didn’t engage in a conspiracy to have Republican politics send fraudulent slates of electors to Congress in order to steal an election. She didn’t pressure state officials to “find” non-existent votes in order to steal the election. She didn’t pressure the VP to break the law and violate the Constitution by disregarding the legally valid slates of electors sent to Congress by several states. And she didn’t sic a mob — some of whom were armed — on the Congress and the VP to threaten them into stealing the election.

Harris has never claimed that the only way she can lose is if Relief Society cheat. Trump, on the other hand, is running the same playbook. Even though this is by any objective evidence a very close election, he’s once again poisoning the well by telling his followers that the only way he can lose is if the election is unfair. There is no — no comparable effort on the D side.
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honorentheos
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

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https://www.prri.org/research/challenge ... e%20office.

From Findings from the 2024 American Values Survey

Republicans are far more likely than Democrats to support their candidate assuming office by force after an election loss.

Nearly one in five Republicans (19%), including 23% of Republicans who hold a favorable view of Trump, say that if Trump loses the election, he should declare the results invalid and do whatever it takes to assume office.

About one in ten Democrats (12%), including 12% of Democrats who hold a favorable view of Harris, say that if Harris loses the election, she should declare the results invalid and do whatever it takes to assume office.

Nearly half of Americans (49%) agree that there is a real danger that Trump will use the presidency to become a dictator, compared to only 28% who hold similar concerns about Harris.

Although most Americans reject political violence, Republicans remain more likely than Democrats to support potential political violence.

Nearly half of Americans (45%) believe Republicans are determined to stay in power, even if that means resorting to political violence, compared with about one-third (35%) who think the same about Democrats.

Nearly three in ten Republicans (29%) believe that true American patriots may have to resort to violence to save the country, compared with 16% of independents and 8% of Democrats.

Republicans are twice as likely (27%) as independents (14%) or Democrats (12%) to agree that armed everyday citizens should be poll watchers, even if this makes some voters uncomfortable.

While most Americans (80%) disagree that “if the 2024 presidential election is compromised by voter fraud, everyday Americans will need to ensure the rightful leader takes office, even if it requires taking violent actions,” Republicans (22%) are more likely to agree than independents (14%) or Democrats (12%).

Views on whether Trump broke the law trying to stay in power after losing the 2020 election, whether the election was stolen from Trump, and whether those convicted in the Jan. 6 insurrection are being held hostage by the government are strongly shaped by partisanship and news viewership.

A slim majority of Americans (53%) agree it is likely that Trump broke the law to try to stay in power after losing the 2020 election, though just 17% of Republicans agree. Americans who most trust Fox News (12%) or far-right news outlets (4%) are the least likely to believe Trump broke the law to stay in power after losing the election.

More than six in ten Republicans (62%), compared with 27% of independents and 4% of Democrats, believe the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Americans who most trust far-right TV news outlets (84%) and Fox News (64%) are the most likely to agree with the statement that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump.

Only one in four Americans (25%) agree with Trump’s frequent claim that “the people convicted for their role in the violent Jan. 6 attacks on the U.S. Capitol are really patriots who are being held hostage by the government.” Republicans (46%) are more than twice as likely as independents (20%) and about seven times as likely as Democrats (7%) to agree with this statement.
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Post by ajax18 »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:52 am
ceeboo wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:20 am
montage of Democrats objecting to 2016 election
https://youtu.be/umsAhEFHFKA?si=IhjvtzvDvwt6lwLB
I kept waiting for the mob of Democrats breaking into the Capitol preparing to hang the VP.

Where was that again?

I mean, I can play videos of the lame court cases that Trump lost, but the use of legal procedures to question the results is not the same damned thing as an armed mob trying to stop the count of electoral ballots, is it?
FLASHBACK: Hillary Clinton repeatedly called Trump 'illegitimate' president

https://youtu.be/iO-Sw8CCxxY?si=bhfDsnhWSb2wFDKp
And where is the video of her sending a mob to storm the Capitol? You know, the ones with the zip ties to detain Congress illegally. The ones beating up and thereby hospitalizing police officers, some of whom died?

I think we can agree that Clinton was a sore loser who wanted to blame the Russians for her loss. But Clinton didn't break the law in calling Trump illegitimate, ceeboo. I think it was dumb of her to do, but it was not illegal. How many of Trump's people have been convicted of crimes? Has Trump not been convicted of multiple felonies?

This does not happen just because. There is no mass conspiracy that results in all of these convictions. Trump broke the law. His chumps and lackeys broke the law. And they did so not just to contest an election. They did so to steal an election. You bring the receipts that show Clinton seeking to steal an election. Your videos show no such thing or anything close to it.
What Biden did with threatening to withhold aid from Israel in an effort to swivel the 2024 election is every bit as impeachable as what Democrats impeached Trump for on 2019. Biden warned Israel that the US would withdraw aid to Israel if Israel did not facilitate entry of aid into the northern Gaza Strip which we all know that most of this aid is hijacked by Hamas to fund terrorists. What they're really looking for is an excuse to embargo Israel not to retaliate against Iran. The retaliatory action would be calibrated to avoid the perception of political interference in the US elections, the Biden administration official said signaling that an Israeli strike has the potential to reshape the presidential race (Washington post)

Pressuring Israel not to retaliate against Iran by threatening to withhold aid to help Democrats keep the Muslim votes in Dearborne Michigan is just like what Trump was accused of in the 2019 impeachment. But because of the partisan political nature of our criminal justice system, charges against Biden/Harris are not even on the radar. This is just one of many examples.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 11:40 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 2:52 am


I kept waiting for the mob of Democrats breaking into the Capitol preparing to hang the VP.

Where was that again?

I mean, I can play videos of the lame court cases that Trump lost, but the use of legal procedures to question the results is not the same damned thing as an armed mob trying to stop the count of electoral ballots, is it?



And where is the video of her sending a mob to storm the Capitol? You know, the ones with the zip ties to detain Congress illegally. The ones beating up and thereby hospitalizing police officers, some of whom died?

I think we can agree that Clinton was a sore loser who wanted to blame the Russians for her loss. But Clinton didn't break the law in calling Trump illegitimate, ceeboo. I think it was dumb of her to do, but it was not illegal. How many of Trump's people have been convicted of crimes? Has Trump not been convicted of multiple felonies?

This does not happen just because. There is no mass conspiracy that results in all of these convictions. Trump broke the law. His chumps and lackeys broke the law. And they did so not just to contest an election. They did so to steal an election. You bring the receipts that show Clinton seeking to steal an election. Your videos show no such thing or anything close to it.
What Biden did with threatening to withhold aid from Israel in an effort to swivel the 2024 election is every bit as impeachable as what Democrats impeached Trump for on 2019. Biden warned Israel that the US would withdraw aid to Israel if Israel did not facilitate entry of aid into the northern Gaza Strip which we all know that most of this aid is hijacked by Hamas to fund terrorists. What they're really looking for is an excuse to embargo Israel not to retaliate against Iran. The retaliatory action would be calibrated to avoid the perception of political interference in the US elections, the Biden administration official said signaling that an Israeli strike has the potential to reshape the presidential race (Washington post)

Pressuring Israel not to retaliate against Iran by threatening to withhold aid to help Democrats keep the Muslim votes in Dearborne Michigan is just like what Trump was accused of in the 2019 impeachment. But because of the partisan political nature of our criminal justice system, charges against Biden/Harris are not even on the radar. This is just one of many examples.
Stfu, Donny. You literally want the US to go on a campaign to conquer and depopulate the Middle East so US citizens can exploit it for themselves. damned fascist.

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Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Tue Oct 22, 2024 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 11:40 am
What Biden did with threatening to withhold aid from Israel in an effort to swivel the 2024 election is every bit as impeachable as what Democrats impeached Trump for on 2019. Biden warned Israel that the US would withdraw aid to Israel if Israel did not facilitate entry of aid into the northern Gaza Strip which we all know that most of this aid is hijacked by Hamas to fund terrorists. What they're really looking for is an excuse to embargo Israel not to retaliate against Iran. The retaliatory action would be calibrated to avoid the perception of political interference in the US elections, the Biden administration official said signaling that an Israeli strike has the potential to reshape the presidential race (Washington post)

Pressuring Israel not to retaliate against Iran by threatening to withhold aid to help Democrats keep the Muslim votes in Dearborne Michigan is just like what Trump was accused of in the 2019 impeachment. But because of the partisan political nature of our criminal justice system, charges against Biden/Harris are not even on the radar. This is just one of many examples.
Israel is engaging in genocide. Ukraine is trying to preserve its freedom from Empire Russia. There is a moral imperative to avoid genocide as much as one can. In any case, you are constantly shifting the goal posts and throwing chaff into the conversation. When one of your losing arguments predictably fails, you don't try to save it; you simply move on to the next distraction. Answer my original questions, then we can move on to Biden and Israel.
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Someone gets busted for stealing a lot of Harris/Walz signs because one of them had a tracker in it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/therewasanattempt/s/rbZ6IVX1Sr

I noticed on a few other subreddits I frequent Harris/Walz signs getting stole. I think I recall a few Reddit posts showing idiots trying to steal and destroy Trump signs, too, so it’s not all in one direction.

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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 12:46 am
I stumbled upon this interesting paper on political polarization and violence. https://carnegieendowment.org/research/ ... ys?lang=en
Res, thanks for sharing as that was a fascinating read.

Like you this bit caught me by surprise:
Res Ipsa wrote:There are some conclusions that surprised me. One is that the folks who are least attached to democracy and most likely to prefer authoritarianism are not those at the ideological extremes — it is the centrists (people who subscribe to views from the left and the right — that are least attached to democracy.
The most relevant section on that from the article in case folks didn't want to wade through the whole thing but were interested:
From the link wrote:A consistent misunderstanding is that people who hold views from both sides of the aisle are moderates. In fact, survey findings from the Democracy Fund Voter Study Group found that Americans who held the least polarized ideological beliefs were actually the voting cohort least in favor of democracy and most supportive of a “strong leader” who did not need to bother with Congress or elections. The preponderance of Americans who respond to ideological survey questions with answers on both sides of the aisle tend to be pro–economic redistribution (for their group) while also upholding a White, Christian, U.S.-born norm of American citizenship.206 These voters were long (and correctly) classified as swing voters, although they have since 2016 moved more decisively into the Republican Party. But these former swing voters are often erroneously classified as centrist or moderates by surveyors because they hold cross-partisan beliefs. They are better viewed not as moderates but as disgruntled, not very intense on policy or partisanship, and only very loosely attached to democracy.
There wasn't much of a surprise to me in the "how" of reducing affective polarization; Correcting misconceptions about party's demographics and ideological beliefs, forming a stronger linked narrative (we've talked about that ad nauseam here), bringing like groups together in a controlled way on an activity to foster understanding. All things that seem very practical and reasonable but then you have this:
Reducing affective polarization through these lab experiments and games has not been shown to affect regular Americans’ support for antidemocratic candidates, support for antidemocratic behaviors, voting behavior, or support for political violence.
Pulling it back to "what can I do?", a few takeaways In no particular order:
  • Support and encourage others to engage media outlets that aren't stoking the politicization or anti-democratic sentiments
  • The same but for politicians.
  • Continue to work to bridge communication gaps between those around me. Working to do my part to 1)not give in to easy misconceptions about others and 2) seek to undo those misconceptions when presented the opportunity.
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Re: The Rise in Political Violence

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2024 1:04 am
… and (we) don't want to let the left trans our kids.
ajax, let’s assume that Trump’s nutty talk about lunchtime gender reassignment is actually a thing, and your daughter walks into the Express Reassignment café at her local school one day on a whim, comes home as ‘a boy’ and asks you to call them Stonewall from here on out.

I have a couple of questions, then:

1. What is your child to you, at that point? Do you still love and accept Stonewall?

2. What is the ‘agenda’ that Stonewall would now be pushing, and for what purpose?

This has become such an oft-repeated talking point at Trump rallies, so I’m curious how folks in his base interpret what’s happening and how they would choose to deal with it after the fact.
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