DCP, living in the past.

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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by sock puppet »

Markk wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2024 5:10 pm
My latest post to Dan.

Dan: Actually, I don't. But sometimes I feel the need to correct the public record.

[Markk:] Why don't you do so with the 2nd Watson Letter? I am sure the "public" would love for you to "correctly" set the record straight (question by request of your benevolent stalker)."

Dan: Do you really imagine that the general public knows or cares even slightly about that non-issue? (Incidentally, you owe my Malevolent Stalker for his coaching you on it. He's really dedicated, isn't he?) For one thing, I think it’s about twenty-five or thirty years old.. I scarcely remember it now. (Cue howls of outraged derision.) And it was never of central importance. Not to me and not to our position.

The fundamental point to remember here is that, although your cheerleader and coach, my Malevolent Stalker, has long accused me and my associates of lying about it (and virtually everything else), I didn’t and we didn't. Notwithstanding the Stalker’s continual accusations, I'm not only not a liar but I’m not stupid. And yet I would have to be a massively stupid fool, as a member of the Church and a professor at the Church’s flagship university, to have brazenly and publicly lied about a communication from the Office of the First Presidency. Moreover, as a believing Latter-day Saint who accepts the First Presidency as prophets, seers, and revelatory, I would simply never, ever, knowingly seek to misrepresent their position. Never.

There. I think we're caught up. I've responded to every comment that you've submitted here and even, for that matter, to two comments that you've falsely claimed to have submitted here.

If you accuse me of having suppressed any comment from you that you've actually tried to post here, you'll be bearing false witness.

Incidentally, don't post here any more about the so-called "Second Watson Letter." You may be willing to dance to the Malevolent Stalker's tune, but I'm not. He wants to keep his slanderous accusation alive, and he's free to try. But I won't allow him the use of my own blog to do it.
________
Markk: Dan, I am not really sure what Dr. Scratch's opinion is on the 2nd letter, I can only tell you mine, mostly based on RFM's break down of it on his podcast. Based on the evidences he presented it appears that Bill and yourself embellished the fax, into a letter. And, as always the real "crime" often rolls over into the cover up, as we see now.

Honestly for me the whole conversation is a joke given that I know what I was taught in my years in the church. Two Cumorah's is just a joke. The LGT (south) is a vain attempt to salvage testimonies and mopolgentic street cred.

We (my generation and many before and after) were taught and understood that the Hill Cumorah was in New York period. I wish I had the old flannel teaching aids that we were taught with in Jr SS and primary with the the warriors on the hill, that same hill where Joseph received the plates.

Your command not to post here about claims of a 2nd letter shows a real weak point in your armor Dan, again the cover up is always worse than the crime.
Markk, perhaps DCP needs reminded of what one of the 'prophets, seers and revelators', 2nd Counselor in the First Presidency, even Marion G. Romney, said at General Conference on October 4, 1975. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... y?lang=eng

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the 'hill Cumorah.' (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation."

"As I contemplated this tragic scene from the crest of Cumorah and viewed the beautiful land of the Restoration as it appears today, I cried in my soul, 'How could it have happened?'

"The answer came immediately as I remembered that some fifteen to twenty centuries before their destruction, as the small group of their ancestors was being divinely led from the tower of Babel, the Lord “would that they should come forth even unto [this] land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people."

"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 b.c. and a.d. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’."

"Now my beloved brethren and sisters everywhere, both members of the Church and nonmembers, I bear you my personal witness that I know that the things I have presented to you today are true—both those pertaining to past events and those pertaining to events yet to come."

Important enough for a General Conference talk by a member of the First Presidency, but not so important to DCP.

But DCP is nevertheless left with the choice (a) that his memory is faulty, having been plagued by years of self-delusion, or (b) he deliberately twisted the Ogden Fax into a "Second Watson Letter"? So which is it, DCP? Do enlighten us.
"Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving god, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs." Sam Harris
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Markk »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:52 am
What are your religious beliefs, Markk? I didn’t know til DCP wrote about it that you’re an evangelical, was that after you left Mormonism?
Yes a year or so after finally accepting it was wrong. I am an evangelical. I certainly do not have it all figured out, but it works well for me.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Markk »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:09 pm
The Afore wrote:No, it simply shows that I'm not interested in discussing the topic anymore, and that I won't permit my blog to be commandeered for accusations that I'm dishonest. The matter is really old. I really don't remember many of the details decades after the fact. It wasn't that big a deal for me at the time. It has become a big deal for a few people now because a relatively small handful of folks out there want to use it to demonstrate that Bill Hamblin and I lied. But I know that we didn't, because we weren't liars. And that's about all that I'm in a position to say with any confidence at this late date. And I've said it, multiple times. And repeating it over and over and over again doesn't make for very interesting conversation. It's merely tiresome.

Don't raise the matter here again. (I'm serious about that.) You folks have plenty of other platforms from which to level the accusation of lying against me, and I understand that some of you have been using them and intend to continue to use them in that noble cause. (Bill, alas, is not in a position to reply.) But you can't have my blog for you efforts. Sorry.
They didn't lie "because we weren't liars"? What a bizarre answer. Then how did they come to believe that something that was plainly *NOT* a signed letter from F. Michael Watson, actually *was* a letter from F. Michael Watson? They published this claim in the pages of their allegedly "peer reviewed" journal! Look, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they didn't "lie." Maybe they were confused? Maybe they had sort of "deluded" themselves into thinking that this fax was actually a "2nd Watson Letter"? Like, they so badly wanted it to be true, that it because true in their minds? What happened, exactly?

But, I get it: he doesn't want to say because it this point, it's pretty much impossible to spin-doctor it in a way where he gets out of the issue scot-free. But make no mistake: the 2nd Watson Letter is absolutely devastating to pretty much everything he represents as a Mopologist. If he and Hamblin *did* lie, then what else did they lie about? Getting paid to do apologetics? Did they lie about what happened at the Maxwell Institute in 2012? (For example, they actually know that the ouster was ordered by General Authorities, but they've been lying about it?)

Meanwhile, the Afore has become one of the main proponents of the reliability of the Witnesses. This has been arguably his main apologetic goal of the past 5 years or so. And yet what does it say when we examine his *own* role as a "witness" of the 2nd Watson Letter? It is absolutely devastating. Him trying to brush it aside and censor discussion of it only guarantees that it is going to become a focal point of discussion in 2025.
Again, the cover up is always worse than the crime. He even gave Bill a chance to get them both out of the jam, but Bill doubled down forcing Dan to do so also. If they would have just said they got sloppy and misunderstood the fax, they would have taken a little heat, and it would be over.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Marcus »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2024 7:09 pm
The Afore wrote:No, it simply shows that I'm not interested in discussing the topic anymore, and that I won't permit my blog to be commandeered for accusations that I'm dishonest. The matter is really old. I really don't remember many of the details decades after the fact. It wasn't that big a deal for me at the time. It has become a big deal for a few people now because a relatively small handful of folks out there want to use it to demonstrate that Bill Hamblin and I lied. But I know that we didn't, because we weren't liars. And that's about all that I'm in a position to say with any confidence at this late date. And I've said it, multiple times. And repeating it over and over and over again doesn't make for very interesting conversation. It's merely tiresome.

Don't raise the matter here again. (I'm serious about that.) You folks have plenty of other platforms from which to level the accusation of lying against me, and I understand that some of you have been using them and intend to continue to use them in that noble cause. (Bill, alas, is not in a position to reply.) But you can't have my blog for you efforts. Sorry.
They didn't lie "because we weren't liars"? What a bizarre answer. Then how did they come to believe that something that was plainly *NOT* a signed letter from F. Michael Watson, actually *was* a letter from F. Michael Watson? They published this claim in the pages of their allegedly "peer reviewed" journal! Look, I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they didn't "lie." Maybe they were confused? Maybe they had sort of "deluded" themselves into thinking that this fax was actually a "2nd Watson Letter"? Like, they so badly wanted it to be true, that it because true in their minds? What happened, exactly?

But, I get it: he doesn't want to say because it this point, it's pretty much impossible to spin-doctor it in a way where he gets out of the issue scot-free. But make no mistake: the 2nd Watson Letter is absolutely devastating to pretty much everything he represents as a Mopologist. If he and Hamblin *did* lie, then what else did they lie about? Getting paid to do apologetics? Did they lie about what happened at the Maxwell Institute in 2012? (For example, they actually know that the ouster was ordered by General Authorities, but they've been lying about it?)

Meanwhile, the Afore has become one of the main proponents of the reliability of the Witnesses. This has been arguably his main apologetic goal of the past 5 years or so. And yet what does it say when we examine his *own* role as a "witness" of the 2nd Watson Letter? It is absolutely devastating. Him trying to brush it aside and censor discussion of it only guarantees that it is going to become a focal point of discussion in 2025.
So, Peterson is directly refuting what Watson himself said in his 2022 interview:
Are you familiar with [FAIR's] discussion of the 1990 letter on their website under the heading “Did the First Presidency identify the New York ‘Hill Cumorah’ as the site of the Nephite final battles?” (Exhibits B-F)

MW. Yes.

DLP. Are you concerned with what they have published?

MW. Yes. It seems that FAIR has attempted to alter, revise, or diminish the declarative authority of the 1990 letter while neither seeking, nor obtaining permission or authorization to do so from myself or the First Presidency’s office.

DLP. Let’s discuss the specific statement on the FAIR website which reads:

The First Presidency's secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding, and then at the direction of the First Presidency later clarified/corrected his statement to indicate that while many Latter-day Saints have expressed opinions about the location of Cumorah (or other Book of Mormon geography issues), the Church has no official geography.

DLP. Is that an accurate statement?

MW. Clearly not, because the letter was reviewed by the First Presidency before being sent to Bishop Brooks and was meant to respond to his question.

I was asked to respond to the member’s original letter to his local Bishop with the brief factual explanation about the teachings of the General Authorities regarding Cumorah. Each member of the First Presidency approved of the letter or I would not have sent it.

https://www.mobom.org/1990-letter-on-cumorah
From a web archive dated Oct 26, 2021, the part Watson is responding to is indicated in blue:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... battles%3F
20 captures
16 Sep 2021 - 28 May 2024

Question: Did the First Presidency identify the New York "Hill Cumorah" as the site of the Nephite final battles?

The First Presidency's secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding - No revelatory basis exists for this position

The First Presidency's secretary apparently answered a question according to his own understanding, and then at the direction of the First Presidency later clarified/corrected his statement to indicate that while many Latter-day Saints have expressed opinions about the location of Cumorah (or other Book of Mormon geography issues), the Church has no official geography. No revelatory basis exists for any geographical scheme outside of the Book of Mormon text itself.
However, the above portion in blue has now been removed. The current version adds the part below in orange:
Question: Did the First Presidency identify the New York "Hill Cumorah" as the site of the Nephite final battles?

Many Latter-day Saints (including apostles and members of the 1st Presidency) have expressed opinions about the location of Cumorah (or other Book of Mormon geography issues), the Church has no official geography for the Book of Mormon.

Main article: Statements about Book of Mormon geography from leaders

According to the Church, no revelatory basis exists for any geographical scheme outside of the Book of Mormon text itself.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/ans ... battles%3F
So even FAIR has, at the very least by omitting the false statement, indicated they were wrong. But Peterson can't admit to any wrongdoing or even inaccuracies.
Dr. Scratch wrote: ...Him trying to brush it aside and censor discussion of it only guarantees that it is going to become a focal point of discussion in 2025.
Couldn't agree more.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Marcus »

Kishkumen wrote: ...But why slag [Peterson]'s accomplishments? I think he has plenty to be proud of and feel satisfied about. I don't begrudge him his sense of accomplishment. If I were in his shoes, I would be pretty satisfied that I had done my best to defend my religion, raised a lot of money to aid in the effort, had seen much of the world, had written quite a lot, edited quite a lot, and had made a couple of movies. What's not to feel proud of there?
His lengthy and unapologetic record of plagiarism, for one.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by I Have Questions »

Here is a thread with comprehensive testimony from Watson himself that shows Peterson is wrong about what he and Bill claimed the letter was.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157677&hilit=second+watson+letter

Peterson cannot acknowledge any mopologetic misstep or error. Ever. He simply tries to minimise the significance of the subject or claim lack of memory. The fact is, it is Watson himself rebuts what Peterson and Hamblin claimed about a letter they said they had received from him.
Last edited by I Have Questions on Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by drumdude »

Markk wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2024 8:41 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2024 12:52 am
What are your religious beliefs, Markk? I didn’t know til DCP wrote about it that you’re an evangelical, was that after you left Mormonism?
Yes a year or so after finally accepting it was wrong. I am an evangelical. I certainly do not have it all figured out, but it works well for me.
That’s awesome! I like to hear from ex-Mormons who didn’t completely abandon Christianity.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Markk »

My last response....


Dan: There's no "cover-up." There was no embellishment. And I don't need RFM's discussion of it (which I wouldn't trust anyway) to know that neither Bill nor I lied. Because -- notwithstanding the demonology that's been created, nurtured, and carefully cultivated over at the Obsession Board -- I'm not a liar, and neither was he.

Markk: I have at least one letter from Watson (signed), addressed to me, answering a question I had when I was questioning my LDS faith some 30 years ago. The intro reads basically the same as the 1st Watson Letter; that he was asked by the brethren to answer a particular question. I also have letters from others, James E. Hartley and James L. Kimball Jr., on behalf of the brethren which all start the same way....that they were asked or referred to answer my questions.

So my question to you, given that you saw the 2nd letter....who was Elder Watson addressing? Was it Hamblin? Did Bill write Watson specifically for his paper? It seems odd to me that given the SoP the church had for answering questions, that Watson just wrote a letter out of the blue contradicting his earlier response.

Is it possible you saw something other than a letter from Elder Watson? Maybe the fax?
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by Marcus »

I Have Questions wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2024 9:45 pm
Here is a thread with comprehensive testimony from Watson himself that shows Peterson is wrong about what he and Bill claimed the letter was.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157677&hilit=second+watson+letter

Peterson cannot acknowledge any mopologetic misstep or error. Ever. He simply tries to minimise the significance of the subject or claim lack of memory. The fact is, it is Watson himself rebuts what Peterson and Hamblin claimed about a letter they said they had received from him.
That thread is awesome! I quoted just the one part from Watson's interview but the whole thread discusses it further, with the added bonus of a callback from Everybody Wang Chung to an even older thread that is spectacular:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2023 6:13 pm
But DCP has not only seen the 2nd Watson Letter, he held it in his own hands. DCP is one the 3 Witnesses to the letter.

DCP wouldn’t lie, would he?

This is a great thread that exposes all the lies and deception employed by the Mopologists in relation to the Watson letter.

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 4&t=111121
That thread is from 2009, titled "2nd Watson Letter just found!" It was one of the first long threads I was directed to when I first started reading here in 2015. We are lucky to have such great threads archived here. From page 41 (!!):
_Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:28 am
This is, without doubt, the singular most astonishing take down of Mormon apologetics in existence. Incredible sleuthing and detective work.
Indeed. Peterson's objections that he and Bill "never lied" don't even begin to tell the whole story.
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Re: DCP, living in the past.

Post by drumdude »

Since Hamblin is dead I think DCP has decided to just put his head in the sand on the issue. If DCP didn’t see it, then Bill certainly did. And Bill isn’t around to challenge anymore. No one is going to convince him that he and his former best friend were wrong even if there’s direct hard evidence.
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