Question for Don Bradley

[drumdude]

Just not smart enough for Don, apparently!

[Kishkumen]

Just not smart enough for Don, apparently!

LOL! Is that really what I said? I don’t think so!

[Marcus]

I am probably incorrect, I don’t know the full history. I wasn’t trying to criticize every post you two have made, just the style of dealing with disagreements here that you two sometimes share, from my limited perspective.

If, in your opinion, you think I am sometimes as condescending as Kishkumen, then thank you for your comment. I certainly don't want to give that impression, so I will pay attention in the future to those types of situations. (Are you sure you are not just assuming, on the basis of interactions with Kishkumen, that all academicians are like that? )

[drumdude]

I am probably incorrect, I don’t know the full history. I wasn’t trying to criticize every post you two have made, just the style of dealing with disagreements here that you two sometimes share, from my limited perspective.

If, in your opinion, you think I am sometimes as condescending as Kishkumen, then thank you for your comment. I certainly don't want to give that impression, so I will pay attention in the future to those types of situations. (Are you sure you are not just assuming, on the basis of interactions with Kishkumen, that all academicians are like that? )

You’re all the same!

I enjoy the heck out of reading both of y’all’s posts, despite my minor quibbles.

[dan vogel]

I disagree with your reading. Nephi is not simply “Joseph Smith.” There may be a lot of Smith’s story in Nephi, but that does not make the two figures identical by any means. Try to push that too hard, and it crumbles pretty quickly.

I see the Book of Mormon undermining racist assumptions over time, not supporting them. If the book were simplistically racist, then Lamanites would be bad guys throughout and white skin would always map perfectly onto righteousness. No, Lamanites convert. Lamanites survive whereas Nephite civilization is wiped out. Nephites are more wicked than Lamanites in the end.

Someone said to ask me. So, here is my take. The Book of Mormon attempts to explain why the white Mound Builders were destroyed by the Indians. The answer in the Book of Mormon is that the Nephites sinned against the light, which is worse than the Lamanites following the false traditions of their fathers. This tapped into the Puritain jeremiads that warned the white settlers to repent or God would use the Indians against them. I don't think this undermines the racism in the Book of Mormon.

I agree that it's not wise to push 19th-century influences too far. Writers often base their characters on people they know, but it would be silly to insist Nephi was Joseph Smith. In some ways, perhaps Nephi is an idealized version of Joseph Smith. Both were supporters of their father's dream visions. Yet Isaac Hale described Joseph Smith as saucy towards his father. Similarly, Lehi seems to be an idealized version of Joseph Sr. Other characters could be composits of people Joseph Smith knew.

[dan vogel]

Joseph Smith never in his wildest imagination thought WE would be having this discussion in the year 2025. Christ was supposed to have appeared and Zion was to have been established under the direction of the choice seer in the 1800's. The prophecies failed.

Just ask Vogel.

That’s one way to approach the question. Another way is to hypothesize about what Joseph Smith might have said about today’s LDS Church if he were approaching it through his views in the Book of Mormon.

Instead of saying it this way, I think you should just contrast the present church with the Book of Mormon. No need to hypothesize.

[Kishkumen]

Someone said to ask me. So, here is my take. The Book of Mormon attempts to explain why the white Mound Builders were destroyed by the Indians. The answer in the Book of Mormon is that the Nephites sinned against the light, which is worse than the Lamanites following the false traditions of their fathers. This tapped into the Puritain jeremiads that warned the white settlers to repent or God would use the Indians against them. I don't think this undermines the racism in the Book of Mormon.

I agree that it's not wise to push 19th-century influences too far. Writers often base their characters on people they know, but it would be silly to insist Nephi was Joseph Smith. In some ways, perhaps Nephi is an idealized version of Joseph Smith. Both were supporters of their father's dream visions. Yet Isaac Hale described Joseph Smith as saucy towards his father. Similarly, Lehi seems to be an idealized version of Joseph Sr. Other characters could be composits of people Joseph Smith knew.

Thank you, Dan! I value your expertise on the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith!

[Kishkumen]

Instead of saying it this way, I think you should just contrast the present church with the Book of Mormon. No need to hypothesize.

I see what you are saying.

[Moksha]

I see the Book of Mormon undermining racist assumptions over time, not supporting them. If the book were simplistically racist, then Lamanites would be bad guys throughout, and white skin would always map perfectly onto righteousness. No, Lamanites convert. Lamanites survive whereas Nephite civilization is wiped out. Nephites are more wicked than Lamanites in the end.

Plus there was the need to explain the abundance of Lamanites and the complete lack of Nephites, or else the Pilgrims would have received bagels, lox, and cream cheese on the first Thanksgiving.

[Kishkumen]

Plus there was the need to explain the abundance of Lamanites and the complete lack of Nephites, or else the Pilgrims would have received bagels, lox, and cream cheese on the first Thanksgiving.

Oy vey!