Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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Marcus wrote:
Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:46 pm
When the revelation process is not real, it stands no chance of passing this test. The Mormon religious leaders have set themselves up for this failure repeatedly, but lately they seem to realize what people see.
You have no proof that the 'revelation process' is not a thing. Again, I would encourage you to read what I've said on page 4 of this thread and in other places and get over the fact that you may not be an expert on this whole revelation thing.

You're just a human saying stuff. :lol:

Regards,
MG
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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Marcus wrote:
Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:46 pm
I Have Questions wrote:
Sat Jun 21, 2025 8:46 pm
...Your talk about revelations being subject to the vagaries of life simply renders God impotent and unable to issue revelations that will have standing. On that basis, why bother?

But the actual problem is not you, it’s your Church. Your Church does not throw in the excuses that Revelations are unreliable…because people. No. Your Church says you can always trust the living Prophet. So when the living Prophet (in this case Taylor) reveals that God wants his Church to live the law of polygamy, always, that statement should be both trusted as correct, and stand the test of time. It did neither. There’s a host of such revelations that have been shown to be nothing of the sort. You know this, which is why you seek to relegate “Revelations” to “forecasts and suggestions”. The Church also knows this, which is why Presidents have stopped announcing “revelations”. The last time someone did that (Nelson), he had to do a U-Turn on it within weeks.
This is the saddest part. LDS people have to tie themselves in illogical, nonsensical knots to support their leaders in this area even when the evidence shows the leaders are wrong, or dishonest, or not trustworthy. It happens over and over and over. In no other aspect of their lives would people behave so illogically.
The hallmark of a divine revelation should be that, in time, it is shown to have provided insight that could not have been gleaned by humanity any other way at the time it was “revealed”. We can test the veracity of revelations in hindsight with real accuracy. Guess how that turns out for the credibility of Mormon Prophets?
When the revelation process is not real, it stands no chance of passing this test. The Mormon religious leaders have set themselves up for this failure repeatedly, but lately they seem to realize what people see.
For the most part, Mormon Prophets have been shown to be undeserving of the memberships trust. They have shown time and time and time again that what they call a “revelation” is nothing more than a guess, or forecast, something they personally feel good about. There also know that revelations are unreliable and more likely to be the whim of the individual, hence why they are happy to reverse their predecessors revelations. Nelson might be the only Prophet forced to reverse his own claimed revelation. The Church PR machine tried to downplay Nelson’s claim that it was a revelation. What does that tell you about the view the SLC mandarins have when a Prophet uses the “R” word for one of their utterances?

There isn’t a Mormon Prophet’s revelation that passes the test of being something that was from an all knowing God. Not one. The failure to accept Taylor’s revelation as real and binding is confirmation that Prophets don’t really believe in revelation. It’s a label they put on something when they don’t want an argument or a debate. And now they’ve stopped using it because it backfires. Every time.

This is how the Church defines “revelation”…
In its broad meaning, revelation is divine guidance or inspiration; it is the communication of truth and knowledge from God to His children on earth, suited to their language and understanding. It simply means to uncover something not yet known.
Can anyone think of a revelation from a modern Mormon Prophet that represented something not yet known, and that panned out to be accurate?
Premise 1. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
Premise 2. The best evidence for the Book of Mormon is eyewitness testimony.
Conclusion. Therefore, the best evidence for the Book of Mormon is notoriously unreliable.
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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And the answer is ...... wait for it ..... THEY MAKE IT UP! THEY ALWAYS MADE IT UP, EVERY LAST SUPPOSED REVELATION!

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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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Commentary: LDS Church finally publishes a polygamy revelation it insisted for years didn’t exist

By Benjamin E. Park | Religion News Service
| June 17, 2025, 6:00 a.m.

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religion built on modern revelation, perhaps no revelation has caused as much controversy as one attributed to President John Taylor, who presided over the faith in the 1880s during one of its most tumultuous decades.

In 1886, while the federal government sought to stop all Latter-day Saints who practiced polygamy, Taylor allegedly wrote a revelation proclaiming the controversial practice was an everlasting covenant that could never be revoked. Such a command quickly became complicated when the church renounced the practice in 1890. Latter-day Saint authorities then publicly and vociferously denied his document’s existence for over a century.

That is until June 14, when the revelation quietly appeared in the church history library’s catalog.

What happened to it in the intervening 130-plus years? The revelation was for years in the hands of Taylor’s son, John W. Taylor — a slim, stern man with well-manicured hair, a conservative mustache and a piercing gaze. John W. Taylor was groomed for church leadership and ordained an apostle at age 26 in 1884, four years after his father became the faith’s prophet.

The elder Taylor spent much of his presidency hiding as government officials prosecuted and imprisoned those who practiced plural marriage. He died in 1887, separated from family and out of public sight. John W. Taylor always maintained his father had exhibited profound bravery in his refusal to acquiesce.

While the next church president, Wilford Woodruff, publicly forfeited polygamy in 1890 to ensure the church’s survival, John W. Taylor rejected any such concession: Polygamy, he believed, was an eternal law.

He and a handful of other authorities secretly continued to solemnize plural unions, and the young apostle was sealed to three additional wives. This prompted the church in 1904 to issue a “Second Manifesto,” telling members they must cease all plural marriages for good.

Taylor’s son loses his membership
John W. Taylor refused and lost his place as an apostle, forfeiting his ecclesiastical office instead of betraying his father’s principles.

But that demotion wasn’t the end of his church discipline. After being caught solemnizing more polygamous unions, he was summoned to an excommunication trial. At the hearing, he displayed what he alleged was the 1886 revelation from his late father, written in President Taylor’s own hand, proclaiming polygamy could never be revoked. John W. Taylor was excommunicated. And when he died in 1916, the document crucial to his defense remained within his family.

Over the ensuing two decades, an increasing number of Latter-day Saints became convinced the church had erred in renouncing polygamy. They congregated around men who claimed to have been appointed by President Taylor himself in September 1886 to a priesthood council authorized to continue the principle even if the church strayed. At the heart of their narrative was the revelation that John W. Taylor had displayed at his excommunication trial.

Finally, on June 17, 1933, after years of disputes, the church’s governing First Presidency issued a memo reaffirming the threat of excommunication to anyone who continued to practice plural marriage. The memo explicitly dismissed rumors of a “pretended revelation” from President Taylor and denied the document existed.

Nellie Taylor, the widowed plural wife of John W. Taylor, knew otherwise. She had spent the underground period of the 1880s hiding in Mexico and stood by her husband as they remained committed to the principle. Through an intermediary, she contacted the First Presidency within a month of the memo’s release and alerted them to her father-in-law’s revelation and where they could find it.

By July 15, 1933, the First Presidency held in its possession the document whose existence it vehemently denied. It wasn’t a complete surprise — the church historian’s office had a copy of the text, though not access to the original, as early as 1909.

Instead of correcting the June memo’s assertions, the church instead sequestered the revelation. Church authorities refused to confirm its veracity.

Meanwhile, Latter-day Saints committed to polygamy soon became known as “fundamentalists,” a reference to their devotion to what they believed to be the faith’s founding principle. They continued to stake their claims on President Taylor’s alleged revelation. A photograph of the text, likely taken just before the document was turned over to Latter-day Saint authorities, was frequently shared within the community, though it could never be verified.

What the revelation says
The “Taylor Revelation,” as it is sometimes known, only grew in significance throughout the 20th century. Although many ideas found in it were featured in President Taylor’s other available documents, including several other revelations from his underground period, this text took on mythic proportions. It came to symbolize polygamy’s eternal nature and its centrality to the faith, etched in a prophet’s own hand — even if, and perhaps especially because, its existence could not be firmly corroborated.

What’s in the revelation released Saturday? Cataloged as MS 34928 and titled “John Taylor revelation, 1886 September 27,” the digitized archival file contains several documents. Besides the long-speculated revelatory text — words in faded pencil that were addressed to “My Son John” — there are several typescripts, as well as a memo signed by First Presidency counselor J. Reuben Clark that details how the revelation came into the church’s possession.

The revelation is clear in its purpose and matches the photographed text that has circulated in the fundamentalist community. “How can I revoke an everlasting covenant,” President Taylor’s God declares, when “my everlasting covenants cannot be abrogated nor done away with.” All who wish to enter into God’s highest glory “must and shall obey my law.”

While these documents do not confirm other key elements of the fundamentalist origin story — most notably, the ordination of a clandestine priesthood council — they confirm the existence of a text fundamentalists have long insisted was real.

As important as the document will likely be to fundamentalists, it raises thorny issues for Latter-day Saints. Was Taylor’s revelation true, and were the prophets who followed him traitors? And what does it mean for Latter-day Saint authority if revelations — and revelators — are fallible?

The church did not attempt to answer these questions. Instead, the documents appeared in the catalog without any comment or explanation. I think it is part of a process in which the First Presidency has been slowly transferring many previously restricted historical documents in its archives to the church historical department, rather than it being any kind of response to current debates about the role of polygamy in church history. But perhaps further analysis is coming.

While these documents exhibit material frailty — faded etchings, ruffled pages, jagged creases — their contents pose lasting meaning. Latter-day Saints cherish their tradition’s revelatory treasures.

(Mike Hoogterp) Historian Benjamin Park says the publication of the "Taylor Revelation" marks an important development in church history.

Note to readers • Benjamin E. Park teaches American history at Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas, is the author of “American Zion: A New History of Mormonism,” runs the YouTube channel Professor Benjamin Park and recently became the president of the Mormon History Association. The views expressed in this commentary do not necessarily reflect those of Religion News Service.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2025/06 ... leases-an/
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Jun 22, 2025 1:59 am
You're just a human saying stuff. :lol:

Regards,
MG
Good point, it is not like Wendy Watson Nelson telling us Jesus had returned and met with LDS Apostles in the Salt Lake Temple. That was an incredible revelation fraught with new light and knowledge. No mere human!!!
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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Are current LDS leaders denying the members the means to the Everlasting Covenant and the ability to be with God in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom?

Or was that entire idea just a charade to get the horny men of Zion laid and the wives condemned for serial adultery?
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Jun 22, 2025 1:59 am
Marcus wrote:
Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:46 pm
When the revelation process is not real, it stands no chance of passing this test. The Mormon religious leaders have set themselves up for this failure repeatedly, but lately they seem to realize what people see.
Again, I would encourage you to read what I've said on page 4 of this thread and in other places and get over the fact that you may not be an expert on this whole revelation thing.

Regards,
MG
I don't know about anyone else, but if MG posted it on page 4 and other places, I'm convinced.
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Jun 22, 2025 1:59 am
You're just a human saying stuff. :lol:
Have you ever known anyone that "says stuff" who wasn't human?
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sock puppet
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Sun Jun 22, 2025 1:59 am
Marcus wrote:
Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:46 pm
When the revelation process is not real, it stands no chance of passing this test. The Mormon religious leaders have set themselves up for this failure repeatedly, but lately they seem to realize what people see.
You have no proof that the 'revelation process' is not a thing. Again, I would encourage you to read what I've said on page 4 of this thread and in other places and get over the fact that you may not be an expert on this whole revelation thing.

You're just a human saying stuff. :lol:

Regards,
MG
Are you sure that Marcus isn't the giant white toad that bitch slapped Joseph Smith when he first tried to take the gold plates?
"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." – Mark Twain
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Re: Church previously denied a John Taylor revelation on polygamy now admits it

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MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Jun 20, 2025 6:42 pm
sock puppet, your alternative to a creator God is what?

Regards,
MG
Space and energy/matter have always existed.
"The truth has no defense against a fool determined to believe a lie." – Mark Twain
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