Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Kishkumen]

... The early Facebook messages are chilling if you read them all the way through and know the well-documented patterns of predation (targeting, gaining trust, fulfilling a need, isolating, then physical contact).

Doc is spot on identifying the changes.

Many of these patterns can also be observed in the pre-mating rituals (dating) of humans. It all depends on intent. Once again, this situation appeared to be to adults, it happy with their situation at the time. JD appears to be the instigator, and per her story, and on a bit strong. I mean, allegedly hitting on her when her husband just left the table. The main issue I have though is when the interviewer asks for examples, she didn’t really have any.

Sorry to pick this up so far down the road, but I find it extremely odd if not disturbing that JP applies a model of grooming used by adults on kids to JD and Rosebud. Like she’s some kid? I don’t think so! Creepy.

[pistolero]

So if she had been a quiet and compliant mistress, accepting what she was offered and never asking for more, she could have kept her job?

Who knows if "quiet and compliant mistress" would have kept her her job. Men have been known to dispose of their mistresses on a whim without a reason.

Again, I don't want to get into a gender politics discussion, I don't think it is about that. The brilliant podcaster JD could have easily been a female and it would not change the discussion here.

What I think Kukulkan is getting at is that Rosebud's behaviour became somewhat unbalanced. It could have very easily been a male subordinate that behaved in the same way. But again, this is only based on reading some e-mails and messages (and potentially some bias generated by current day behaviour by Rosebud which I consider to be rather unhealthy).

[consiglieri]

Can I point out the obvious that the only way Rosebud could legitimately claim the offer to reapply was made by Open Stories Foundation in bad faith was to accept the terms and then for Open Stories Foundation to renege?

Absent that, her claim that that is what they “would” have done is as baseless as most of her other allegations.

on your podcast, Hefner clearly stated that even though they offered this, the board had no intention of hiring her back to her same positions. When I pointed this out in this thread, I was told Hefner didn't really remember things correctly and that her memories of the situation are unreliable. The information you presented is reliable, except when it is not? I'm sure you can understand what an untenable position that is.

To your point about waiting for Open Stories Foundation to "renege", think about it. This is a victim, pretty sure she is being taken advantage of. What confidence would she have that anyone would listen or respond if she waited for Open Stories Foundation to renege, and THEN she pointed it out? That's a strategy for people in power, not for a victim being pushed out.

I believe it is a smart move for a victim to obtain power.

[Esme]

What is confusing me is that Rosebud in the very text chain you are quoting says that it was a consensual affair between them both. She then says that she felt her job depended on being with JD. That makes absolutely no sense. You CANNOT be in a consensual affair but at the same time feel compelled to be in it. That is the antithesis of consent. Rosebud is not clear in her accusations. Was it consensual? Was is not? If it wasn't, don't admit to it being a consensual affair. This back and forth between consensual and not implies to me that it was indeed a consensual affair at the time, but in retrospect she as attributed negative connotations due to the results not being the results she wanted (JD choosing his wife and kids over her)

I read it as she is saying it STARTED as a consensual affair, but didn't stay that way. Something can start as consensual, but consent can also be withdrawn at any point. Now that she feels her job is at risk and dependent on the relationship, the relationship isn't consensual in the same way it was when it started.

[Kishkumen]

Margi Dehlin is a public figure and the host of an Open Stories Foundation podcast, Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis.

What the “F”. Why do you hate that woman so much? That was a really sexist post. So, you’re just going to leave the victim’s name unredacted???

You know what. If Margi Dehlin is fair game, then so the “F” is Rosebud. Is this a precedent you’re willing to set?

- Doc

The emails tell the story of Rosebud’s hatred of Margi. Not surprising that JP would walk in lock step with Rosebud in that.

[Kukulkan]

No because JD was ENDING the affair. It was because Rosebud kept attempting to seduce and berate him after the fact he made it clear it was over was the reason she lost her job. At that point JD was no longer consenting to continuing the affair. That constitutes sexual harassment.

It's not clear to me who you think was being sexually harassed. Could you clarify?

JD was being sexually harassed at the point when Rosebud was continually trying to continue the sexual affair between them after JD stated he was not interested. Propositioning someone with unwanted sexual requests = sexual harassment.

What I think Kukulkan is getting at is that Rosebud's behaviour became somewhat unbalanced. It could have very easily been a male subordinate that behaved in the same way. But again, this is only based on reading some e-mails and messages (and potentially some bias generated by current day behaviour by Rosebud which I consider to be rather unhealthy).

Yes. Consider this. A male subordinate and female superior engage and a workplace affair. After a while, the female superior faced with the ultimatum of choosing the male subordinate over her family ultimately chooses her family. After this the male subordinate continues to contact and berate the female superior into being with him. That is sexual harassment.

[Kishkumen]

I read it as she is saying it STARTED as a consensual affair, but didn't stay that way. Something can start as consensual, but consent can also be withdrawn at any point. Now that she feels her job is at risk and dependent on the relationship, the relationship isn't consensual in the same way it was when it started.

So when she was pressing JD to have intercourse and he was declining, was she consenting? This was late summer of 2012.

[Kukulkan]

What is confusing me is that Rosebud in the very text chain you are quoting says that it was a consensual affair between them both. She then says that she felt her job depended on being with JD. That makes absolutely no sense. You CANNOT be in a consensual affair but at the same time feel compelled to be in it. That is the antithesis of consent. Rosebud is not clear in her accusations. Was it consensual? Was is not? If it wasn't, don't admit to it being a consensual affair. This back and forth between consensual and not implies to me that it was indeed a consensual affair at the time, but in retrospect she as attributed negative connotations due to the results not being the results she wanted (JD choosing his wife and kids over her)

I read it as she is saying it STARTED as a consensual affair, but didn't stay that way. Something can start as consensual, but consent can also be withdrawn at any point. Now that she feels her job is at risk and dependent on the relationship, the relationship isn't consensual in the same way it was when it started.

That does not explain that once JD stated he wanted it to end that Rosebud continued to pursue him aggressively.

[pistolero]

So if there was harassment, it was unintentional (and I have no clue if this should or does make a difference - just curious more than anything else), because he misunderstood her relationship to Open Stories Foundation and also his and her relationship with each other within Open Stories Foundation?

So I ask a question, assuming that there are more acute legal minds out there if they can explain if unintentionally, ignorantly, or whatever makes a difference?

But the point remains, is it shown in that e-mail that he unaware of her relationship to Open Stories Foundation, therefore how do you prove sexual harassment?

Why would ignorance be a defense? If he sexually harassed her, he sexually harassed her.

I don't know. I thought that intent, mens rea, or whatever you call it counts for something? That's why I'm asking. (eg. I have a friend who slept with his sister and got away with it... he didn't know she was his sister.)

So the final answer, that I can take as gospel is: it doesn't matter? Is this what you are saying?

[Lem]

on your podcast, Hefner clearly stated that even though they offered this, the board had no intention of hiring her back to her same positions. When I pointed this out in this thread, I was told Hefner didn't really remember things correctly and that her memories of the situation are unreliable. The information you presented is reliable, except when it is not? I'm sure you can understand what an untenable position that is.

To your point about waiting for Open Stories Foundation to "renege", think about it. This is a victim, pretty sure she is being taken advantage of. What confidence would she have that anyone would listen or respond if she waited for Open Stories Foundation to renege, and THEN she pointed it out? That's a strategy for people in power, not for a victim being pushed out.

I believe it is a smart move for a victim to obtain power.

You say that like you think a victim in this kind of situation can gain power. in my opinion, that does not recognize the power differentials.